Requests for new languages/Wikisource Ligurian

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main page Request for a new language edition: Wikisource Ligurian
submitted verification final decision
Application-certificate.svg This proposal has been approved.
The Board of Trustees and language committee have deemed that there is sufficient grounds and community to create the new language project.

A committee member provided the following comment:

--MF-W 13:54, 10 July 2020 (UTC) See bug T257672
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code lij (SILEthnologue) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Ligurian Language name in English
Language name Ligure Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q36106 - item has currently the following values:
  • en label = Ligurian
  • native label (P1705) = Lengoa ligure
  • instance/subclass (P31/P279) = language, modern language, definitely endangered language / Gallo-Italic languages
  • Wikimedia language code (P424) = lij
  • writing system (P282) = Latin script
  • number of speakers (P1098) = 2,000,000


Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Community
You can optionally list your user name if you are an active contributor to the test wiki. Add "N" next to your name if you are a native speaker of this language.
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Settings
Project name Wikivivàgna "Wikisource" in your language
Project namespace Wikivivàgna usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace Discuscioìn Wikivivàgna "Wikisource talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo File:... 135x135 PNG derivative from a decent SVG image (instructions)
Default project timezone Europe/Rome "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces "Aotô" (Author), "Discuscioìn aotô" (Author talk), "Ìndice" (Index), "Discuscioìn ìndice" (Index talk), "Pàgina" (Page), "Discuscioìn pàgina" (Page talk), "Òpia" (Work), "Discuscioìn òpia" (Work talk) For example for a Wikisource which would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk"
Additional settings On the Wikisource logo, should be written "Wikivivàgna" instead of "Wikisource" Anything else that should be set
submit phabricator task (includes everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings)


Proposal[edit]

Ligurian is a language spoken in the Liguria region of Italy (which includes the city of Genoa), in adjacent parts of France, and also in Monaco. The language had 500,000 native speakers as of 2002. There is a relatively large amount of Ligurian pages in Multilingual Wikisource (over 3000 pages in the Ligurian category), which I believe is enough content to consider creating a Ligurian subdomain. DraconicDark (talk) 00:41, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

The Ligurian language is also spoken on a small island close to Sardinia and in a town of Corsica. --Luensu1959 (talk) 09:28, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

  • Support - G.Musso (talk) 15:47, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Support--Mizardellorsa (talk) 21:27, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Support --S4b1nuz E.656 (talk) 15:16, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Support This is by far the biggest language on s:mul: and if the users there want to graduate, they have several thousand pages to get them started. —Justin (koavf)TCM 23:29, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Support --Samuele2002 (Talk!) 22:49, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Support. Well organized and maintained. Lots of activity and contents. --OosWesThoesBes (talk) 13:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Not in favor. I explained my reasons below. I have been the main contributor in the past few months. We need native speakers to contribute and we do not have them now.--Luensu1959 (talk) 21:49, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Proposed approval[edit]

Hello! This project is very likely going to be approved soon, cf. Talk:Language_committee#Notification_about_proposed_approval_of_Ligurian_Wikisource. In the meantime, please check the data in the template at the top of this page and adjust/complete it if necessary, so that we can request the creation of the wiki when the waiting-period is over. Thanks and best regards, --MF-W 12:22, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@MF-Warburg: Hi, i adjusted the template on the top. Hope that Ligurian Wikisource will be created as fast as possible. Cheers --S4b1nuz ᴇ.656(SMS) 18:15, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Thanks! Request is now on phabricator. --MF-W 13:59, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg: @S4b1nuz E.656: Thanks for caring for us, but there is a big problem here at the moment. I firmly oppose the creation of the Ligurian Wikisource in this moment in time as we have no native speakers who can work on the new interface. Of course, being one of the two persons (users) who have most contributed to Wiki source in (Genoese) Ligurian, I would be in favor of an independent Ligurian Wiki Source, but the time is not ripe yet. I urge to stop the process until we are able to solve the issue of translating the whole interface. The other possibility would be to maintain the interface in English as this keeps the Ligurian language distinct from Italian and gives it a touch of internationalism: more people from around the world would be able to note us. Please give feedback to my objection asap. Luensu1959 --87.6.233.34 15:52, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
@Luensu1959: As I have said before, translating the entire interface is not required. All components of the interface that are necessary for approval have been translated. All of the requirements for approval have been met; otherwise, the language committee would not have approved the request. DraconicDark (talk) 22:53, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, this is true. I don't understand the problem, I'm afraid. The interface translation doesn't need to be complete already, it can be completed in the future. --MF-W 13:16, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

I've now read the new comments on Phabricator. User:Luensu1959: You said you would prefer to keep the Ligurian content as a part of the Multilingual Wikisource. You also said Wikisource in Ligurian is not growing anymore and that you have been the only contributor in the past few months. This looks a bit different. - User:G.Musso, User:Giromin Cangiaxo, User:Samuele2002: can you add your thoughts as well? --MF-W 16:32, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi! I'm native, I'm contributing regularly and I am surely in favor of the creation of the Ligurian Wikisource. I really don't see where the problem is. (Of course, being computer illiterate all I can do is transcribe text, but I know there are very competent people around here taking care of the important technical stuff). cheers! G.Musso (talk) 19:36, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
You just made my day! Being already 60 years old I always have problems with IT configurations and did not know the existence of the page you hinted at! After my latest contributions on the Ligurian Wikisource I got no feedback from G. Musso and felt I was definitely alone. You quoted two good native speakers: Giromin Cangiaxo was the admin on Wikipedia Ligure who taught me the basics about how to become and work as an admin. I know he is active on translate wiki (the only one contributor for us Genoese/Ligurian people, as far as I know), but never replied to my messages after he left for translate wiki. I see that one more native speaker, Carlo Poggi, is also active, I now see him on the chart; he is great on Wiki Ligure, too. Samuele2002 has great technical skills but speaks no Ligurian (so is our young generation, unfortunately), and neither does my young friend S4b1nuz E.656. Now, considering the unusual length of the process that was started to make Ligurian Wikisource kind of independent (more than a year elapsed, and the page was not publicized on the Ligurian Wikisource home page: as you see, I posted my comment when everything had already been decided) and considering that, apart from G.Musso, no native speaker participated in the voting (including myself), I deem it appropriate to make it anew by reaching out to those people you and I have just mentioned, because they are the ones entitled to decide, aren't they? Four weeks would be enough to let every contributor of Ligurian Wikisource have their say. Eager to know if you share my thoughts and my proposals, I wish you all the best. --Luensu1959 (talk) 19:43, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
@G.Musso: Great to read from you! Then we can also talk separately in Genoese about The interface translation doesn't need to be complete already, it can be completed in the future. Who is going to do that work and how big is it? Can Giromin Cangiaxo cope with that? Is he aware? --Luensu1959 (talk) 19:51, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
@Luensu1959: There is no need to rush to complete all of the interface translations that aren't required; the important translations have already been completed. When translations are done, they will immediately appear in the interface. Translation to Ligurian is complete enough to a point where untranslated messages should be rare (the most used messages and the majority of the core messages have already been translated). With that in mind, there is no real concern here and the creation of Ligurian Wikisource should be able to continue as originally planned. DraconicDark (talk) 00:45, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, go ahead, nihil obstat, alles in ordnung! I've spent my covid lockdown translating the core interface (except 80 messages or so that i wasn't authorized to) so that I could see this dawn come, and therefore don't stop now! Thanks. Giromin Cangiaxo (talk) 05:02, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Wonderful! Wunderbar! Mävegiuzu! Now we have confirmation from the sole translator for Genoese working on translate wiki! Alles klar, green light for the project! --Luensu1959 (talk) 09:31, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Thank you all for your comments & contributions! I will ask the developers to continue the creation of the new wiki. --MF-W 10:48, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you all again. Do you agree with the namespace names proposed here -> phabricator:T257672#6304335? @G.Musso and Giromin Cangiaxo: --MF-W 14:44, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for asking! Being not a big fan of italianisms I would've written "endexo" instead of "indice", but "indiçe" should be a good compromise. I also would've written "œuvie" instead of "opia", or, if "Work" means "what an author has written", I would go for "scriti", otherwise it should be "travaggio", as in "work in progress", "keep up the good work"... Finally, "talk" is singular, so "discuscion" instead of "discuscioin", which is plural. I also try to limit the use of accents to the bare essential, but there are quite a few conflicting spelling theories about Ligurian, so I'd never ever start an edit war about this kind of issues. Thanks! Giromin Cangiaxo (talk) 05:19, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Please allow me to condense Giromin's preferences for our non-Ligurian friends:

Wikisource-specific namespace names:

"Aotô" (Author), "Discuscion aotô" (Author talk),

"Ìndice" (Index), "Discuscion ìndiçe" (Index talk),

"Pàgina" (Page), "Discuscion pagina" (Page talk),

"Òpia" (Work), "Discuscion scriti" (Work talk)

@G.Musso and Giromin Cangiaxo: Shall we give the green light to this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Luensu1959 (talk)

Shouldn't there be consistency between the "normal" and the talk namespace (with regard to Òpia / Discuscion scriti)? By the way, alternative names can also be defined as aliases for the namespaces, which would then also work. But one set of names needs to be chosen as the standard for display. --MF-W 08:45, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, my mistake in copying. Òpia was not accepted by the two lead native speakers. Scriti refers to written documents (and not to paintings or sculptures), so Discuscion scriti is perfect for the Ligurian Wikisource as it only consists in written documents. Once again the scheme awaiting confirmation:

Wikisource-specific namespace names:

"Aotô" (Author), "Discuscion aotô" (Author talk),

"Ìndice" (Index), "Discuscion ìndiçe" (Index talk),

"Pàgina" (Page), "Discuscion pagina" (Page talk),

"Scriti" (Work), "Discuscion scriti" (Work talk)

--Luensu1959 (talk) 10:40, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I made a big mistake, since I don't know what context the word "Work" is used in: if it should refer to just one literary work it should be "scrito" (singular); if it refers to a page containing a list of all available works from a given author then it should be "scriti" plural. However since I don't want to be a hindrance, I recant everything I've written so far and I approve the namespaces originally on top of phabricator:T257672#6304335 which are all in all correct. Thanks! Giromin Cangiaxo (talk) 11:48, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Please, there is no rush. But singular should be fine. --MF-W 11:51, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
@G.Musso and Giromin Cangiaxo: Dear Giromìn, I don't see any mistake at all. G.Musso made it clear that Òpia should be replaced with œuvia or with scrito as pointed out in phabricator:T257672#6304335. I feel that œuvia sounds better in the singular than scrito does. Then you added that Indiçe (not Indice) is a good compromise. So, below is a synthesis of your preferences (yours and Musso's), which is different from the first translation done by a non-native speaker by using the TIG dictionary. I guess this should be definitive:

Wikisource-specific namespace names:

"Aotô" (Author), "Discuscion aotô" (Author talk),

"Ìndiçe" (Index), "Discuscion ìndiçe" (Index talk),

"Pagina" (Page), "Discuscion pagina" (Page talk),

"Œuvia" (Work), "Discuscion œuvia" (Work talk)

--Luensu1959 (talk) 21:24, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

To everyone: The last small problem we need to solve now is the Wikisource logo that is still missing. It would be nice (even if I'm not a Ligurian native speaker) if the word "Wikivivàgna" would appear instead of "Wikisource" below the logo (vivàgna means source).
I don't know how to modify/create a Wiki logo, but maybe someone can create a logo for Ligurian Wikisource and upload it on Commons when everybody agrees? (for example like this one). --S4b1nuz ᴇ.656(SMS) 08:47, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
A really cool idea S4b1nuz! I've tried tinkering with one I found on Commons and I came up with this one
Wikivivagna-logo 203 x 233 px.png
even though i'm not sure whether it meets the criteria for an official Wiki logo. If there are precise requirements I guess I can modify it. Thanks to you all for the great job you are doing! Cheers! G.Musso (talk) 09:00, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
@G.Musso: Looks very good for me! Alegri! --S4b1nuz ᴇ.656(SMS) 14:40, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
@G.Musso: Your draft logo looks fine to me, too! Alegri! --Luensu1959 (talk) 10:07, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Import[edit]

I have now imported all pages from oldwikisource:Category:Ligure to s:lij:Categorîa:Ligure. Please check if everything is correct; if anything is missing (also templates etc.), please tell me, so that I can fix it. I did not touch the 122 media files in the category - please take care of moving them to Commons, as uploading is not activated on the new wiki. In a week or so, when there are no issues, I will ask OldWikisource admins to delete the pages there. --MF-W 22:49, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi MF-W! From a cursory glance I spotted this missing pages:

(Sorry, my fault, since they were not categorized as "ligure".)

Also there seems to be quite a few indexes with no file, even though the file has been moved to Commons and it is there:

also in some pages like this one:

the index is there but the page doesn't show up.

I wouldn't know what to do, but i'm sure you do. THanks! G.Musso (talk) 14:09, 23 July 2020 (UTC)