Talk:Wikimedia Foundation/Legal/Community Resilience and Sustainability/Trust and Safety/Resources/What is a conduct warning

Gender neutral please

This page should be gender-neutralized in many ways. While the example about the man repeatedly asking a women about her qualification is certainly an example of asymmetrical realities, the other examples could be gender neutralized. "This user is looking for a girlfriend" is no less problematic than "This user is looking for a boyfriend". Likewise, there is nothing about asking someone to have a drink in your room that is exclusively male or female, nor is there reason to think that men cannot be made uncomfortable in the same way. Or that the dynamics have to be male vs female to be problematic. Headbomb (talk) 09:59, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

I disagree and think you are missing context. There are three gendered examples on the page.

• The first specifically concerns the "societal attitude that women are less skilled or less deserving of prestige".
• The second concerns what is quite clearly someone identifying as an Incel ("members of an online subculture who define themselves as unable to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one"). "Self-identified incels are largely white and are almost exclusively male heterosexuals." This subculture is "characterized by resentment, misanthropy, self-pity, self-loathing, misogyny, racism, a sense of entitlement to sex, and the endorsement of violence against sexually active people". In this context, "This user is looking for a girlfriend", is a rather threatening statement. Without that context, the message about seeking a boyfriend/girlfriend on Wiki moves from "alarming" to "inappropriate" and "unwise".
• The third is not "asking someone to have a drink in your room" but "urging" "to have another alcoholic beverage" and "sharing a hotel room" certainly implies sleeping together, not merely a friendly chat over drinks before bidding each other goodnight and going their separate ways. The pattern of an inebriated person being forced to have sex without or against consent forms a good proportion of rape cases, and is certainly not gender balanced.

My main observation with the page is the large number of examples involving Wikimania type events. I appreciate that bringing strangers together increases risks and problems that online anonymity holds back, but it does rather make it sound like such events pose a significant danger. If that's true, it is rather sad. -- Colin (talk) 12:00, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, this one is clearly about incels, which depending on how you define them, has a lot more males than females. However, the language is still just as problematic if you flip the genders around. Likewise, women can urge men to get drunk and take them to their rooms as well. There is no reason why those examples need to be MEN = CREEP , WOMEN = VICTIM. Make them gender neutral. Pressuring someone to drink up and follow you to your room is no more and no less problematic if it's done by a man, woman, non-binary, or whoever else. Headbomb (talk) 16:33, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the "have a drink in my room" bit, I actually was made rather uncomfortable by a woman who kept making such a request, and ultimately ended up leaving the place altogether due to it. (I was already engaged to my now-wife, and had made that quite clear, but that seemed to make no difference). So, they certainly can and does happen to men. I do think that every example involving threatening or inappropriate behavior being against women at least implies that such a complaint by a man, even if it has merit, would not be taken as seriously. Seraphimblade (talk) 15:46, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for these thoughts, folks. Colin's points regarding the first ("how did you get this job") and second (the so-called "incel") items match my feelings that gender is relevant to those items. The third one, the "have another drink" one, is not really tied to gender, so I've changed that to a scenario featuring two men (since, on reflection, the page is otherwise heavy on the heterosexual and ignores that these things can happen in all gender combinations). Kbrown (WMF) (talk) 16:30, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Seraphimblade, there is a difference between receiving an unwanted advance that makes one uncomfortable, to the point of wanting to leave, and a scenario which makes one feel unsafe or threatened. I doubt very much, for example, that as a man you were concerned for your safety that the woman might follow you. So wrt "not be taken as seriously" I think there are good reasons for the asymmetry. With a limited set of examples, it isn't possible to provide a balance that lists every scenario with appropriate weight.

Kbrown. I have no idea if "take sexual advantage" (date rape) is a statistically significant feature of gay social encounters to warrant becoming an example. It feels a bit like the genders have been changed solely to achieve an equivalence that isn't perhaps representative of reality. -- Colin (talk) 20:49, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Colin, that's rather dismissive, I think. I didn't really know her well, so I had no idea what she might or might not do. I certainly took pains to ensure she didn't notice I was leaving, because I didn't want any incidents to happen. But regardless, what is inappropriate for men to do to women, is similarly inappropriate for women to do to men, and complaints from anyone and about anyone should be taken with equal seriousness. Seraphimblade (talk) 00:05, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Well yes I am begin dismissive because your example is merely an anecdote where you felt uncomfortable, with no long term consequences for your physical or mental health, rather than a crime or even a fear of a crime. And language like "equal seriousness" is just one of those terms like "respecting democracy" that alone no reasonable person would question, but you are implying an equivalence which simply does not exist. Sexual crime is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men, and the great majority of victims are women. A crime is a crime, of course, no matter what gender or orientation, but female on male sexual assault is a "man bites dog" scenario. -- Colin (talk) 11:39, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

I do not believe that anything in this policy must rise to the level of "crime or fear of a crime" to be actionable under it, or at least that's certainly not how I read it. It covers a pretty substantial amount of behavior that would not be criminal in most jurisdictions, but is nonetheless inappropriate and would make a reasonable person uncomfortable. And anyone of any gender could do that to anyone of any gender, so yes, complaints from anyone and about anyone should be taken seriously. I certainly hope you're not advocating for gender-based discrimination against complainants. Seraphimblade (talk) 14:36, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

I think you are using loading language when making your arguments, and detracting from the point. Your original claim: " I do think that every example involving threatening or inappropriate behavior being against women at least implies that such a complaint by a man, even if it has merit, would not be taken as seriously. " does not compute. There is no such implication at all, and fail to see how your point follows. You also seem to be confusing anectdote with overwhelming statistical data. The gender ratio (as originally written) reflects reality. Your own personal experience is just that: your own personal experience. Due to the comments here, we now have a situation where the "room share" story is confusing, rather than being a story readers will recognise. It is not uncommon for people of the same gender to share hotel/hostel rooms for economy, particularly if there are twin/separate beds, without any sexual activity being suggested. I think Kbrown should consult her colleagues on the statistically appropriate representation of genders and orientations within a handful of stories on this page, rather than changing to some artificial scenarios just because someone on the internet complained. -- Colin (talk) 16:11, 28 July 2019 (UTC) -- Colin (talk) 16:11, 28 July 2019 (UTC)