Fundraising meeting, September 2005/Log

From Meta, a Wikimedia project coordination wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Session Start: Sat Sep 17 08:42:39 2005 Session Ident: #wikimedia-meeting

  • Logging #wikimedia-meeting to 'logs\20050917FundraisingMeeting.freenode'
  • Angela has joined #wikimedia-meeting
  • Snowdog has joined #wikimedia-meeting
  • MikeSnow has joined #wikimedia-meeting
  • TimShell changes topic to 'Fundraising meeting - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_meeting%2C_September_2005�'
  • dannyisme has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<dannyisme> hello
<Angela> Hi.
<dannyisme> invite terry
<Angela> It's not invite-only. He can just come here.
  • TerryFoote has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<TerryFoote> Hello.
<TimShell> howdy 
  • TimShell fetches coffee
<MikeSnow> None for me, thanks
  • cimon has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<TimShell> mav is allegedly coming
<TimShell> I did not go to sleep last night
<TimShell> So I am a bit frazzled
  • jeronim` has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<Snowdog> hi everybody
  • tsca has joined #wikimedia-meeting
  • SamKorn has joined #wikimedia-meeting
  • cimon is tempted to ask that he be devoiced, jsut to remove temptation.
  • mav has joined #wikimedia-meeting
  • cimon has a debilitating head cold.
<MikeSnow> Now that mav is here, are we waiting for anyone else in particular?
<TimShell> No
<TimShell> Let me preface by saying
<dannyisme> Anthere?
<TimShell> the purpose of this meeting is not to make decisions
<TimShell> but to think about what we could do in the next drive
<TimShell> Throughout the most recent fund drive
<TimShell> people were complaining about many things we were doing wrong 
<TerryFoote> the most recent fund drive was a great success.
<dannyisme> such as
<TimShell> or stuff we should have been doing but weren't
<TimShell> I tried to keep a list of problems on the url listed there in the topic
<dannyisme> what were complaints
<TimShell> Michael Davis, for example, thought it was not clear that we could accept donations from credit cards but not through PayPal
<dannyisme> opposite
<TimShell> The donate link said PayPal
<TimShell> Michael thought it was confusing for people who did not use PayPal
<dannyisme> ok
<TimShell> They perhaps didn't realize they could donate
<dannyisme> we have to set up credit card donations better
<TimShell> So as Terry said this last drive was a great success
<TimShell> and we should all be pleased
<MikeSnow> If we have direct credit card payment processing it's pretty easy to say you can also use credit cards via PayPal
<TimShell> Why don't we have that already ?
  • innocence has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<dannyisme> takes some time to set up
<dannyisme> so we have to set that up
<Angela> I thought we did have that now.
  • TOR_CNR has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<Angela> It was used for Wikimania.
<MikeSnow> Does anybody know what we need to do to set it up?
<MikeSnow> Angela: How was it used for Wikimania?
<MikeSnow> Was that through the European chapters' accounts?
<Angela> People paid for their accommodation and entrance with credit cards. I think this was to the main Foundation account.
<MikeSnow> Paid online or in person?
<Angela> Online.
<TerryFoote> We have a third party credit card processor.
<TerryFoote> We took quite a few payments for Wikimania that way.
<TerryFoote> But as far as I can tell, there were none from the recent fundraiser, so Michael Davis is right.
<TerryFoote> Something must not have been clear.
<TerryFoote> Every time someone makes a credit card donation, I get an email with all the information.
<dannyisme> but we can do that next fundraiser
<TimShell> That would be a priority
<MikeSnow> It was never added to the donations page as far as I know.
<dannyisme> yes
<TerryFoote> I haven't gotten one since Wikimania time.
<dannyisme> ok, then we have to improve the donation page to reflect mail-in gifts, other payment forms, etc
<Angela> Talk to Austin. I think he was the one who set it up for Wikimania, so he'd know about it.
<TimShell> Another related objection was that the funddrive started shortly after we decided when to have it, so there was not a lot of time to prepare
<dannyisme> ok
<TimShell> If we planned at least a month in advance we could get all this set up in a timely manner
<dannyisme> so we should schedule our bext funddrive better
<TimShell> So I would say we decide soon when the next drive will be
<dannyisme> how many a year
<TimShell> We can't decide that now
<MikeSnow> I would pick January or February, assuming current funds can be expected to last that long
<dannyisme> we should think about it
<TimShell> 2 or 3 or 4 times a year?
<dannyisme> 2
<Angela> Every 3 months seems too much.
<TimShell> Should there be a perpetual donate link?
<MikeSnow> Overall, roughly 2 times a year, but not necessarily on a strict schedule
<MikeSnow> Absolutely a donations link should always be there
<Angela> There should be a perpetual donate link, but not in the sitenotice.
<innocence> i would like to see a more prominant donation link all the time
  • mav has quit IRC (Excess Flood�)
<innocence> i don't think it's obvious that you can donate
<Angela> Simple English has always had one at the end of each article - http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerc.
  • mav has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<TimShell> (My wikimania charge was to the Wikimedia Foundation, St Pete)
<innocence> Ang: yes, something like that
<TimShell> Good, something we all agree on
<Angela> It needs to wrap properly though. It stretches the page on simple and I don't know why.
<dannyisme> i think we should always have one in december (except this year)
<dannyisme> it is christmas season, and right before tax season
<dannyisme> people are more likely to give for tax purposes
<Angela> December seems a bad time. Isn't everyone going to be broke from buying Christmas presents?
<dannyisme> no, that is when people end their tax year
<MikeSnow> Taxes is a plus, but holidays are a minus because of the competition for people's pocketbooks
<TimShell> We could hit up corporations in December
<dannyisme> god idea tim
<dannyisme> good
<Angela> before April would be better tax-wise in the UK. I don't know about other countries, but it's not always going to be December.
<dannyisme> when does the fiscal year end in each country
<dannyisme> we have to find that out
<MikeSnow> Most small donators do not actively schedule how to donate for tax purposes anyway
<TimShell> It depends on the company
<TerryFoote> In any given 501(c)3, the great majority of their donations come from small individual donations.
<TerryFoote> $25-50.
<TerryFoote> Repeated thousands of times.
<TimShell> Fiscal year for companies are listed here: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=MSFT
<TimShell> replace MSFT with company ticker
<TimShell> Mostly in December, apparently
<MikeSnow> It might be useful if we can get ourselves added to corporate charity rosters for payroll deductions
<MikeSnow> like United Way, Red Cross, etc.
<TerryFoote> MikeSnow: I think that's an excellent idea.
<dannyisme> yes
<dannyisme> someone emailed me about a similar arrangement with the US army
<TimShell> United Way and Red Cross are huge
<TimShell> Would it be something a small org. like WMF could do ?
<TerryFoote> From what I can tell looking over our snail mail....
<MikeSnow> TimShell: Well, that's how big we plan to be, right?
<TimShell> eventually
<TimShell> maybe
  • pakaran has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<TerryFoote> We get about 5 times as many donations during fundraisers than when there isn't one.
<MikeSnow> I got an email once from a guy interested in possibly doing donation matching through his company
<TerryFoote> If we can get a steady stream of donations from teh general public, that will eventually add up to a lot of contributions.
<MikeSnow> Terry: Only 5 times? I thought it would be a lot more
<dannyisme> can all donation matching possibilities be collected
<dannyisme> i want to contact them individually and see if they agree to do it
<mav> there is already a donation link in the sidebar
<TimShell> Collected from where ?
<MikeSnow> Developing an ongoing donations stream is definitely important
<mav> what not this year?!
<mav> having a short drive the first or second week of Dec is a must, IMO
<dannyisme> well, MikeSnow has one
<mav> two words : Gift cards
<dannyisme> i am sure there are others
<mav> danny ; that only really matters for nations in which we have tax exempt status
<mav> our average is about 20 bucks
<mav> exactly
<mav> we can try
<dannyisme> we have tax exempt status in the US and Germany
<mav> damn the wiki is slow...
<dannyisme> that is big enough
<dannyisme> those are our two biggest donor countries
<pakaran> that's about 6% of the world population
<innocence> is it clear how much the german foundation can do with their money?
<dannyisme> what percentage of the wealth, pakaran
<pakaran> dannyisme, uhm, more
<Angela> Innocence: not really.
<dannyisme> i think they are investigating that
<innocence> pak: that doesn't really matter when the other 94% doesn't donate anything :)
<TimShell> Let's stay focused
<TimShell> Corporations matching donations
<TimShell> Should we approach them ?
<dannyisme> yes
<TimShell> Should we wait for them to talk to us ?
<TerryFoote> TimShell: Absolutely.
<TimShell> Who should we approach ?
<TimShell> Should we have a standard appeal ?
<TerryFoote> TimShell: I'll do it.
<TimShell> Should we go to Exxon and GE ?
<TerryFoote> I can give it a start anyway.
<TimShell> They have buttloads of money
<TimShell> But they probably have no idea who we are
<TerryFoote> I'm talking with a guy from Coca Cola.
<TerryFoote> Actually we've been playing phone tag.
<TerryFoote> But they're a good start.
<TerryFoote> Exxon and GE I think are too staid and old school.
<TimShell> Are people going to whine about evil corporations sponsoring the fund drive ?
<Angela> I think making a list of which companies have already expressed an interest in donation matching would be a better start than just approaching random companies.
<TerryFoote> Somebody is always going to whine about something.
<pakaran> TimShell, people are going to whine whatever you do.  
<TimShell> Damn people
<pakaran> trust me, I've closed VFDs before
<TimShell> bunch of whiners
<TerryFoote> We should go to Silicon Valley companies.
<innocence> Tim: just tell them that they can't be evil if they support WP
<TerryFoote> They have plenty of money, and will alreayd know of Wikipedia.
<TimShell> Ok, Terry Foote is going to approach hip tech companies
<dannyisme> terry, is there a database in place of everyone who has donated to us?
<TerryFoote> Yes.
<dannyisme> excellent
<TerryFoote> Not exactly the most professional database.
<TimShell> Danny and maybe mav? can help produce a standard pitch
<TerryFoote> Snail mail donations that is.
<TerryFoote> That's all I ahve.
<dannyisme> but we have the skeleton in place
<dannyisme> ok
<TerryFoote> Oh yes.
<TimShell> My idea was to let corporations sponsor specific days
<dannyisme> good, it will be a good job for an intern to update teh database with electronic donations
<dannyisme> divide it into categories
<dannyisme> and pitch to the donors again
<TimShell> If we raise $20,000 one day, Google would match that
<TimShell> Sun would match the next day's
<mav> we are trying to get EU-wide tax exempt status directly
<TimShell> etc.?
<mav> somebody from Google wants to know our EIN so she can set up matching funds
<mav> Angela ; I'm working on such a lsit
<dannyisme> soufron said it is very difficult
<Angela> If you're going to start storing this information on donors, you should add something to the privacy policy.
<dannyisme> yes
<mav> TimShell great idea
<TimShell> Well, if Google wants to match every day I guess that's fine
<Angela> I don't think it's mentioned at all now.
<Angela> I think the idea is that they match the donations from their own staff.
<Angela> Not all the donations.
<TimShell> Ok
<mav> Angela ; not yet
<mav> we need to contact their HR dept and give them our EIN
<TimShell> So my idea, which mav insists is great, will be to offer days up to corporations
<mav> I *really* like that idea
<TimShell> and they can sponsor those days, and get their logo on the donations page for that day
<Angela> Companies like Google already offer this. We just need to be on their list of supported charities, and then their own staff can apply for the match when they donate.
<innocence> hmm, do we really get that many donations from google employees?
<dannyisme> do we mind giving them their logo in return?
<dannyisme> or is that considered advertising
<TimShell> If we are letting them sponsor the day, we have to let people know today is Google Day, or whatever
<Angela> They can't have logos on Wikipedia, but on the Foundation site, that is already done.
<mav> TimShell ; not just the donation page, I'd like to also do this on the sitwide message of each wiki
<pakaran> ok
<dannyisme> that is advertising, mav
<Angela> mav: you want to advertise them on Wikipedia itself?
<dannyisme> very problematic
<mav> if they are sponsoring a day, I say we mention that on the site message
<TimShell> We can tell the corporate donors something general, like they will be mentioned prominently
<pakaran> i was going to say, I would not want to see an article on Wikipedia with a huge banner on the top "XYZ Inc is the Official Bubble Gum Manufacturer of Wikipedia"
<mav> we would not be adveristing them 
<dannyisme> personally, i would be very wary of, say Today is sponsored by Haliburton
<TerryFoote> But would it be perceived as advertising, that's the question.
<MikeSnow> Smells like advertising
<Angela> We can't do that. People objected to mentioning Red Cross in the sitenotice. There's no way they're going to accept ads for profit-making companies in there.
<dannyisme> i agree with angela
<TimShell> If it were on the donations page then that should be ok, right ?
<dannyisme> yes, but not on each wiki
<pakaran> Angela, and if we wanted ads for profit making companies, we wouldn't need sponsorship, we could just sign up with some banner ad agency
<pakaran> or textad or whatever
<pakaran> which is something i would personally be strongly opposed to
<TimShell> And on the site wide notice, maybe a text only message: "Today's donations will be matched by Halliburton"
<Angela> I don't see why it can't just be on a separate page. It seems more likely to put people off donating to have company logos all over the donations page.
<dannyisme> without making a political statement of my own beliefs, what would it look like if the NRA put their logo up
<TimShell> Terry, find out what these corporations want
<pakaran> Angela, like a sponsors page, where you can pay 20K or whatever to have your logo for a year?
<TimShell> when you start soliciting them
<TimShell> and we can decide later
<TimShell> Maybe they will be happy with a press release
<Angela> Pakaran: yes, we did this for the Wikimania sponsors etc.
<TerryFoote> TimShell: They'll want the most they can get from us.
<dannyisme> i dont think we can say that all companies will want the same thing
<dannyisme> terry is 100 percent right here
<TerryFoote> So I think it's very important to know exactly what we will and won't do before approaching them.
<innocence> mav: by the way, the EIN is on that 501(c)3 form
<innocence> mav: so its definitely not secret :)
<TimShell> Ok, this will have to be decided later
<pakaran> should that form be published?  I mean, could someone use the EIN to apply for a corporate credit card claiming to be wikimedia?
<TerryFoote> TimShell: There are many ways to have corporations donate money to us without having to get anywhere near the logo issue.
<dannyisme> i have another idea
<Angela> Pakaran: I think this is public information. Anyone can go and see a 501 form.
<dannyisme> could we have a stream of donators (which can be trned off) at the bottom of the page?
<dannyisme> that will show all donators, big and small
<TimShell> Which page ?
  • dannyisme remembers that the word is donors
<dannyisme> main page of each project
<innocence> donors sounds so morbid.  "i donated my liver to wikipedia"
<dannyisme> so people can see their names
<TerryFoote> Maybe we can use the example of the brick and mortar world.
<dannyisme> what do you mean?
<TerryFoote> Plenty of great works of architecture have been funded by donars.
<dannyisme> yeah, we have signs all over the museum
<dannyisme> one guy actually donated a bathroom in honor of his brother
<TerryFoote> So they have plagues with names of all the donars, arranged in order of generousity.
<dannyisme> as a joke
<TerryFoote> It's not advertising.
<dannyisme> but he gave 100k for it
<TerryFoote> You're not seeing say at the Kennedy Center in DC "
<TerryFoote> "buy the new Ford Taurus NOW"
<TerryFoote> You see though the name of the Ford Foundation.
<TerryFoote> Very different.
<TerryFoote> If we have a benefactors page....
<TerryFoote> Corporations can get the recognition for their generousity...
<MikeSnow> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Benefactors
<TimShell> Will that entice people to donate ?
<dannyisme> we can have ranks
<dannyisme> patrons
<dannyisme> benefactors
<dannyisme> friends
<dannyisme> cheapskates
<MikeSnow> They can also issue press releases, there was one this week from Lexico Publishing
<TerryFoote> If this page on Wikipedia has a link on the homepage...
<TerryFoote> Which is guaranteed to get a lot of traffic...
<TerryFoote> Something as simple as "benefactors"
<TerryFoote> I think corporate donars would be pleased by that.
  • SamKorn is now known as SamKorn|away
<Angela> We're not taking advantage of donations that have already been offered by companies who don't even want a logo or anything in return.
<TimShell> I think the question of what we are willing to give to sponsors in terms of exposure should be brought up at the meeting tomorrow
<Angela> It would be better to follow up on those before approaching anyone else.
<Angela> Google, for example.
<mav> it would just say that Day X of the fund drive is going to have matchintg funds from company y
  • mav has quit IRC (Excess Flood�)
<dannyisme> we can do something like this
<dannyisme> http://www.ecologyfund.com/ecology/totals_honor_roll.html
<TerryFoote> If we had a page where individual donars could see their names, that would be cool too.
  • mav has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<TimShell> That would be cool but would it entice more people to donate ?
<dannyisme> that is what i am showing you
<dannyisme> the honor roll of the ecology fund
<TerryFoote> Sure, and it would entice people who have donated already to keep donating.
<mav> http://wikimediafoundation.org/funddrive/index.php/day1/detail/
<mav> that is created automatically
<dannyisme> and we can even add up people who onate more than once
<dannyisme> so if you give 10 bucks a month
<dannyisme> you are listed at 120
<dannyisme> for a yearf
<TerryFoote> People love to see their name in print.
<mav> how do you get all the data?
<mav> we have somethig set-up for PayPal, but...
<TerryFoote> I have all the names of snail mail donars.
<TerryFoote> All the names of credit card donars too.
<TimShell> It sounds like it could be a nightmare keeping it all straight
<mav> those would need to be entered in by hand
<TerryFoote> NOt if we find a system for organizing it all.
<mav> we need to automate as much as possible
<Angela> Snail mail donors were never asked if they wanted their donation kept anonymous, so we can't use their names on anything public.
<TerryFoote> Angela: you have a point there.
<mav> angela ; we can still assign them unigue IDs, like Anonymous1577
<TerryFoote> For all future donations...
<TerryFoote> We perhaps should have something for on the site for snail mail donations saying "please be sure to tell us if you want your name on our benefactors list"
<mav> we can also ask on the donation page for people to say in the note field of the check if they want to have their name published
<mav> by defaul they will be anyonmous
<mav> just like PayPal
<Angela> cheques have a note field?
<dannyisme> yes, of course
<mav> in the U.S. they do
<Angela> I don't think they do in the UK.
<TerryFoote> Some people tell you they want to remain anonymous.
<TerryFoote> If that's what they want.
<TimShell> I think this is a minor issue
<TerryFoote> NOt really.
<TerryFoote> It could be a major issue if someone chose to make it one.
<mav> Terry ; if they put nothing, then we assume they want to be anon
<innocence> Ang: i never saw a note field
<innocence> Ang: you can write on the back though
<TerryFoote> Mav: I don't know what to assume really.
<TimShell> A benefactors page would be nice but it won't change the scale of donations
<mav> only if they say they want their name listed, will we list it
<TimShell> Matching corporate donations would
<TerryFoote> TimShell: I disagree with that entirely.
<TimShell> You think listing donors would double are donations ?
<TerryFoote> TimShell: The brick and mortar world has been using benefactor pages to great success.
<dannyisme> actually, listing names would increase donations
<dannyisme> yup
<TerryFoote> TimShell: It would be a lot better than what we're doing now, which is esentially nothing.
<dannyisme> we can even think of ways to parallel that
<dannyisme> for instance, we can name a server after a donor
<mav> TerryFoote ; we already list PayPal donations ; donors seem to like it
<TerryFoote> AND....
<TerryFoote> Mav: Yeah, I'm talking about other forms of donations.
<mav> Of course
<TerryFoote> The most donations in any given non-profit, from what I've read, are from repeat donars.
<mav> we just need to figure out a sustainable way to get that to work
<dannyisme> to get repeat donors, we have to acknowledge donors
<dannyisme> a thank you card is a nice way
<TerryFoote> dannyisme: YES!
<mav> before we approache past donors, we *must* make sure we are a registered non-profit in that state/nation
<TerryFoote> dannyisme: a thank you card is a beginning.
<dannyisme> it is step one
<innocence> mav: we're alreayd breaking the law by soliciting donations
<innocence> i doubt it makes much difference :)
<mav> kate ; we are in a gray area
<Angela> Most donors don't give an address, so we can't send cards.
<innocence> mav: yes
<TerryFoote> Angela: snail mail donars do.
<TimShell> How about a contest:  The top 10 largest private donors will have servers named after them
<dannyisme> and that will save us stamps
<Angela> TerryFoote: that is a tiny percentage of donors.
<innocence> Tim: please no :(
<Angela> And I don't think we should start collecting addresses without giving people assurance about what we're going to do with those addresses.
<mav> and snail mail donors are where some of our biggest single donations come from
<TerryFoote> Angela: in the short run yes.
<mav> angela ; of course
<Angela> aren't the servers called things like yaseo9834624 now? 
<TimShell> why not innocence ?
<innocence> Ang: not the important ones
<dannyisme> actually, i think we should have a huge database of donors
<dannyisme> as many as we can get
<innocence> Tim: i don't think you'll get anyone to agree that donators should dictate sysadmin practices
<innocence> it's a really bad trend to start.
<mav> it's just a name
  • yannf has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<mav> yann!
<innocence> "okay, this server foodonator is going to be renamed srv46"
<innocence> "no, we're not allowed to do that"
<yannf> hi mav & others
<jeronim`> we can just alias it to srv46
<jeronim`> then we win and they win
<jeronim`> :)
  • dammit has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<dammit> oy
<mav> yes - alias
<MikeSnow> Agree with jeronim
<TimShell> howdy dammit
<dammit> hello
<innocence> i am absolutely against this idea
<innocence> i refuse to implement it. :)
<MikeSnow> Servers can be named after somebody on a foundation page and the sysadmins can call it whatever they want
<TerryFoote> dammit: Yo!
<mav> but this would only be for real big donors - basically the donation amount would need to pay for the server
<TimShell> Would having a server named after you make you want to donate more ?
<dannyisme> we can do what the Jewish National Fund used to do with trees: they got people to donate teh same forest, and then just kept changing the plaque when the donors came to visit ;-)
<innocence> me personally?  no, i hate vanity
<innocence> if i donated anything, it'd be anonymous
<dannyisme> but, innocence, many people donate for reasons of vanity
<TimShell> People are weird.
<innocence> sure.  but it's not worth the problems it'll cause.
<TerryFoote> It would be about like having General Motors naming an engine part after you.
<dammit> it is not that great, knowing how we curse servers sometimes.
<dammit> I HATE YOU ANDERSEN! ;-)
<dannyisme> next time you go to a museum or a theater, check out how everything is named after someone
<innocence> danny: yes, because the names have no meaning
<dannyisme> or a university for taht matter
<TimShell> Ok, in conclusion, we all agree we should find some way to acknowledge donors
<dannyisme> it does to the people who gave teh money
<TimShell> And we can decide later the best way(s) to do this
<dannyisme> yes, i agree
<dannyisme> and we have to thank them
<TimShell> There is one other thing I think is important
<dannyisme> very important
<TerryFoote> Thanking them is a great start.
<dammit> this is what 'thank you' pages are for.
<MikeSnow> We can also find sponsors for staff
<dannyisme> more than thank you pages
<cimon> innocence, put a sticker with the donors name on the physical server.
<TimShell> We did a piss poor job of publicizing the fund drive
<innocence> name the desks in the office after them, or something :)
<TimShell> We basically relied on internal promotion
<MikeSnow> Or split-work arrangements like some of Mozilla's people
<TimShell> There was no media blitz
<mav> danny :)
<mav> a great many do - esp big donors
<mav> that is why so many libraries and museums have wings name after big donors
<dannyisme> how do we change taht
<mav> and so many other buildings have bricks with donor names on them
<TimShell> No interviews set up with CNN or whomever
<mav> what Danny said
<mav> agreed
<mav> lists on the foundation wiki at the very least
<mav> TimShell ; we put banners up on every page on the 50th most popular website on the Internet
<cimon> TimShell, no mediablitz before we are impervious to criticism
<mav> but yeah, we could have done more
<dannyisme> 40th
<TimShell> I think PR in a fund drive could change the scale of our total donations
<mav> yikes
<TimShell> Double the total maybe
<dannyisme> i agree with that
<dammit> well, if we ask for one million
<cimon> TimShell, our modesty is our shield against journalistic axe-jobs.
<dammit> that's already news-worthy
<dammit> or 10 millions.
<dammit> ;-D
<TimShell> Fuck journalistic axe jobs
<mav> we can't ask for money we have no plan to spend
<mav> we at least need a 5 year plan
<dannyisme> we need a 2 year budget minimum
<TimShell> This is probably the last year we will spend less than $1 million
<mav> dannyisme ; you are insame
<TimShell> We need to start thinking bigger
<mav> insane
<dannyisme> insane?
<dannyisme> i have been called worse
<mav> we ahve no idea what our costs will be even 2 quarters in the future
<dannyisme> we definitely need a long term budget
<mav> esp in regards to hardware purches
<dannyisme> we cant do a quarterly budget
<mav> purchases
<TimShell> We should make publicizing the next fund drive a major priority
<dannyisme> especially when donors want to know what we are doing
<dannyisme> for instance, terry has been working with hp
<mav> danny ; a 5 year plan
<dannyisme> he has done some amazing work
<cimon> mav you need to budget lay-away funds for emergencies
<dannyisme> and they want us to propose something for two years
<mav> cimon ; we have a reserve fund
<dannyisme> that means we need a budget for two years
<mav> dannyisme ; we can do that, but it will be hand waving
<TerryFoote> dannyisme: I have part of that figured out how to pitch to them.
<dannyisme> we cannot afford to handwave
<cimon> mav, the reserve fund has to scale with the general growth
<TerryFoote> But they will want a very clear itemization of how their money was spent.
<dannyisme> at work, i put together budgets all the time for a year in advance
<MikeSnow> Actually, we should start thinking about developing a real endowment
<dannyisme> at the museum they are planning 2006-2007 now
<mav> cimon ; 10% per quarter ; soon to be 20% per quarter if I have my way
<TimShell> Are they growing 300% a year ?
<dammit> dannyisme: at the museum they have done that for years?
<dannyisme> yes, they have
<dammit> dannyisme: is museum growing that fast? :)
<cimon> MikeSnow, in the long term, we need a fund that will support wikimedias activities purely on the interest it generates...
<mav> dannyisme ; they museum is not growing 500% per year
<dannyisme> no, but we are planning exhibitions in 2007 2008 2009
<dannyisme> they are planning
<MikeSnow> cimon: Yes, that's what I meant
<dannyisme> i no longer work there
<mav> planning is one thing, bugeting that far ahead is another
<dannyisme> they are budgeting
<TimShell> This is not a budget meeting
<dannyisme> and we have to do the same
<dannyisme> no
<dannyisme> but fundraising relates directly to budgets
<dannyisme> we have to explain why we need money
<mav> danny ; for us it not possible to budget that far ahead - we are growing way too fast
<dannyisme> we can get sponsorship for sectioons of the budget
<TimShell> We need the money because we can only afford to do 1% of the things we would like to do
<dannyisme> then we have to do the best we can
<dannyisme> and adjust accordingly
<mav> danny ; I can make *draft* budgets that far ahead and we can adjust and make them offical a quarter or two ahead of time
<TimShell> Our budget needs for the next funddrive will likely be much the same as this one, except times 4
<dannyisme> that is not acceptable
<TimShell> So let's focus on that
<dannyisme> we need a real budget for 2006
<dannyisme> all of 2006
<mav> danny ; that's not possible
<dannyisme> mav, every company in the world does it
<mav> my error cone for hardare purchaes is huge ; anywhere between 2 million and 4 million dollars
<dannyisme> good, then make it 3 million and move on to the next item
<mav> dannyisme ; what other company is growiing as exponentially as fast as we are?
<dannyisme> that is not a reason to avoid doing things properly
<dannyisme> we cant wait till we grow to decide what we need
<mav> the further in the future we try to predict things, the larger the uncertainly
<dannyisme> that is fine
<dannyisme> we can adjust
<TerryFoote> Mav: The thing is if we want corporate donations, they are going to demand this of us.
<dannyisme> but we have to have an outline at least
<TimShell> Does anyone want to talk about publicizing the next fund drive ?
<dannyisme> yes
<cimon> mav, hence the need for a big buffer
<dammit> we can ask for lots.
<innocence> mav, just lie
<mav> Terry ; I have nothing against creating draft budgets that far ahead
<dammit> really lots.
<innocence> no-one expects it to be accurate anyway
<TerryFoote> It doesn't have to be perfect.
<TerryFoote> And I personally have no idea how to go about budgeting what we need.
<TerryFoote> BUT...
<mav> in fact I planned to do so already
<cimon> mav just make a point of allocating funds for stuff even further in the future then the span of the budget. As the foundation is non-profit, it can afford to accrue capita.
<TerryFoote> We're going to have a hard time getting money from deep pockets if we don't have some type of financial blue print.
  • jwales has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<jwales> hi
<dannyisme> hi jimbo
<jwales> there's a meeting now?
<dannyisme> we definitely need draft budgets for all of 2006
<mav> draft budgets, yes
<dannyisme> and a good idea of what we will need in 2007 and 2008
<TimShell> We were discussing fundraising
<TimShell> And what we learned from the recent drive
<TimShell> and what we can do differently next time to make it better
<jwales> this is an announced meeting?
<Angela> Yes.
<mav> yep
<jwales> geez
<dannyisme> if terry goes to hp and asks for half a million dollars over two years, he is gonna have to tell them why we need that and not 450,000
<jwales> I have a board meeting on my schedule for tomorrow
<TimShell> I wanted to arrive at some conclusions today
<Angela> that's a chapter meeting isn't it?
<mav> meetings, meetings, meetings
<TimShell> and bring those to the meeting tomorrow
<TerryFoote> Well the good thing is that it's HP that recommended the 500K figure...
<jwales> where was this announced?
<TimShell> see topic
  • innocence never heard anything about HP before
<mav> 500K is a nice start
<innocence> where am i not looking for these things?
<TerryFoote> But we'll need to tell them beforehand where the 500K is going.
<mav> jawales ; on the ml list 3 weeks ago
<Angela> Innocence: I don't think it's public knowledge. I hadn't heard of it before today either.
<innocence> Ang:  oh.  well, it is now :)
<mav> Terry ; absolutely  ; hardware is always a safe bet
<jwales> HP is not the right terminology
<jwales> It is the Hewlett Foundation
<jwales> which is totally separate from the company
<dannyisme> HF
<TerryFoote> Yes, yes. the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation.
  • mark- has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<Angela> The only thing I knew about HP before now was regarding potential Wikiversity development that Anthere was going to follow up on this month.
  • avar has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<Angela> I thought the Hewlett Foundation just wanted a proposal from us?
<dannyisme> i sent a proposal
<jwales> Terry met with some people when he was in California.
<dannyisme> for 350k
<mav> I can create draft budgets for all of 2006 - but would like to know if I can do so on meta?
<TerryFoote> They told me they're ready to give us money.
<jwales> They invited him to come and speak in Utah.
<jwales> They seem enthusiastic.
<mav> Utah? Tim can drive :)
<TimShell> Or not
<mav> walking is not a great option in that part of the country
<mav> so - budgeting ; can I do that in public?
<Angela> I don't see why not.
<mav> cool
<Angela> this was meant to be a short meeting, and since it's 75 minutes gone already, is there anything urgent we still need to cover?
<TimShell> Does anyone care about publicizing the next fund drive ?
<TerryFoote> Wow 75 minutes already?
<dammit> if we make it big, we need it to be public
<Angela> Publicizing it how? We could make a press release.
  • lohi has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<TimShell> Getting Jimmy on Larry King
<jwales> I apologize for missing this meeting.  I put all meetings on my calendar, but this one is not there, so I assume I never heard about it.
<TimShell> Getting all the blogs to mention it
<TerryFoote> A link on the 50th largest website in the world is pretty good publicity.
<dannyisme> it will be there next week
<MikeSnow> Dan Gillmor mentioned it
<TimShell> Off site publicity reaches a whole new set of people
<jwales> I have one primary comment about fundraising ideas before I have to go...
  • Ausir has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<jwales> And this is that we need to brainstorm about how to achieve two things, two things which are somewhat in tension...
<jwales> 1. Being able to declare victory no matter what happens
<jwales> 2. Not giving people the feeling that it is ok to not give because we already achieved success
<jwales> I think Mav has some great ideas about that...
<jwales> We should listen to him.
<TimShell> How important is #1 ?
<jwales> I think #1 is quite important for morale within the community, for positive press, etc.
<jwales> People always ask: "Can you get enough money?"
<jwales> And I'm always  able to confidently say that the public has responded with much love every time we have to ask.
<jwales> I think that's valuable.
<TimShell> Id rather fall just short of a $500,000 goal then to sneak past a $200,000 goal
<jwales> If we ask for $1,000,000 and end up with $250,000 people will start to talk about us having jumped the shark, or gotten too greedy, or some nonsense like that I think.
<jwales> Tim: yes
<jwales> But I'd rather be able to fall just short of $500,000 and be able to say "We aimed for $200,000 for basic needs plus more for exciting projects, and we got $473k"
<TimShell> (hi ausir)
<jwales> I think it's just a matter of carefully setting things up.
<MikeSnow> A drive is going to peter out after the target is reached anyway
<TimShell> We can have a Maslow's hierarchy of Wikipedia needs
<MikeSnow> You'll never approach 500K if your goal is 200K
<Angela> That's why we need multiple goals.
<mav> we need to coordinate contacting various large companies about matching programs
<mav> press release 
<mav> jwales ; I forgot about it as well ; don't feel bad :)
<mav> a set of people less likely to donate, but I see your point
<mav> meeting the current quarters budget  <- minimal victory
<mav> what we need is long term planning ; a 3 year plan and draft budgets for each of those five years
<mav> have special projects be part of our planning
<mav> 5 year plan
<mav> we can have tiers instead of just one goal
<mav> what agela said
<mav> but those goals need to be backed up with a plan to use that money
<mav> jwales ; yep
<mav> so far all we have been asking for is for donors to cover basic needs ; I think we can start asking for more ; but again, we need a plan
<innocence> we're hardly covering basic needs at the moment
<mav> innocence ; please help me with the hardware items of the next few budgets then
<innocence> mav, did you see the wishlist?
<TimShell> Maybe instead of some 5 year plan, we can compile a list of the various things we would like to do in the future
<innocence> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_servers/hardware_orders/wishlist
<innocence> people will write stuff here we want
<mav> if my projections are too conservative, then I need to know
<dannyisme> Tim, the two arent exclusive
<TimShell> Saying we want at some point to get free encyclopedias to Africa is good
<TimShell> Trying to put that in a plan and budget for it would be silly
<innocence> the money we're spending now, from the last fund drive, should have been spent 3 months ago, to keep the site working properly
<mav> tim ; that would be part of the 5 year plan
<dannyisme> Terry did something very wise with HF
<dannyisme> he divided our needs into 3
<jwales> ok I have to go
<dannyisme> Hardware, Staffing, Philanthropy
<TimShell> bye jimmy
<jwales> I want to budget for experiments in Africa, though.  To see what we can do with a little money to promote the growth of African languages, for example.
<Angela> can't the money be spent on servers earlier this time (like now) so we don't have this problem of the site dying every time we're trying to have a fundraising drive?
<innocence> j, i really don't think we're ready for that
<innocence> Angela> no, because we don't _have_ the money
<jwales> Even a mailing to every professor we can find, a paper mailing, who knows English or French and some African language, might produce amazing results.
<Angela> innocence: why not?
<jwales> Well, we have quite a pile of money at the moment.
<innocence> i mean, we do now, but we didn't when we needed it
<jwales> Right.
<innocence> we are spending it now, but it's too late
<dammit> we do now.
<dammit> and we will try to spend some more
<jwales> Let's spend it all now. :-)
<TimShell> We need the fundraising to get the money for the servers to make the site work well during the fundraising
<dammit> and do fundraiser before we run out of it
<dammit> we're not a bank
<dammit> we don't earn money by keeping it ;-)
<Angela> innocence: we have $200,000 in the paypal account for a start. Is all that going to be spent by the end of September (which is when this budget was meant to last until)?
<dammit> well, banks don't either..
<innocence> Angela> sure, if you can promise we'll have more :)
<dammit> Angela: I hope that we will spend that money.
<Angela> and can't the Google servers be got now?
<dannyisme> dammit, can you give a maximum budget for 2006 hardware?
<innocence> danny: $5,000,000
<dammit> 5m$
<dammit> haha
<innocence> :)
<dammit> innocence: ;-)
<jwales> "maximum budget" - yummy!
<jwales> dammit, why don't we order those 30 application server boxes on Monday?
<TimShell> Next week we can have a budget meeting, and talk about fundraising
<jwales> and the switches
<jwales> ok bye all
<Angela> Bye.
<dannyisme> bye 
<dammit> jwales: I want to figure out
  • jwales has quit IRC ("Quitter!"�)
<dammit> all other needs...
<dannyisme> dammit, sir, i think that was an order :-)
<dammit> so that we don't end up without something we really need
<innocence> if we spend $200k now, and we need something else next month, we have problems.
<innocence> so, how soon are we _sure- more money will be available?
  • brion has joined #wikimedia-meeting
<dammit> it does not mean though
<dammit> that we have to keep 200k$ until next month
<Angela> considering the offers from Google, Sun, etc, surely we will have the money available. What is stopping us taking those offers?
<innocence> i know
<innocence> i think we should spend some :)
<innocence> ang: j just said to me that we're waiting for both google and the other people
<innocence> (i nagged him in private about it)
<Angela> we're waiting for them?
<innocence> yes
<Angela> I thought it was the other way round.
<innocence> shocking, isn't it :-)
<innocence> so did i.
<innocence> no-one tells us anything
<brion> has anything stopped us from accepting hardware from sun? cause if so we should unstop it :D
<brion> where "we" is "whoever is talking to them, since it's not us"
<innocence> j: we're waiting on them too
<mav> innocence : I agree
<mav> bye jimmy
<mav> staffing will never be a big enough item to be on its own
<mav> Overhead would be
<mav> Angela ; I agree
<innocence> er.
<mav> TimShell ; I agree
<innocence> brion: --^ that was for you
<mav> Angela ; yep, current quarter ends 30 Sep
<mav> yikes ; my max was 4 million
<mav> based on current grouth rate
<brion> boohoo
<mav> a minimal budget would be ~2 million
<mav> but the max is more likely
<mav> TimShell ; yes - we need a budget meeting ASAP
<mav> I have a draft budget for next quarter that I need to update
<mav> brion!
<mav> kate ; depends on corp donations of money and servers
<dannyisme> do not do a minimal budget
<mav> I say, exhaust the hardware budget before the end of the month
<mav> we have enough offers in the pipeline to carry us to the next fund drive - be it i December or January\
<innocence> mav: that isn't good enough :)
<mav> a minimal budget is just a start
<mav> well, we can't have another fund drive for at least a month 
<dannyisme> we cant have another fund drive for at least 5 months
<TimShell> That's an opinion Danny
<mav> that's wrong Danny
<dannyisme> that is a fact
<dannyisme> people will get fed up
<MikeSnow> four months, try January
<dannyisme> there were already grumblings about this fundraiser
<dannyisme> february
<mav> we had a drive late last year and early this year
<TimShell> If we install new servers and have twice the traffic in 2-3 months, then we can afford to hit people up, because they will be new people
<dannyisme> two a year
<mav> both were smash successes
<innocence> no-one's going to donate until the site is fast again
<mav> TimShell ; exactly
<mav> buy servers now
<innocence> so you'll need to wait until then, at least :)
<innocence> we have, some
<mav> our traffic doubles every 4 to 5 months
<mav> compounded 
<TimShell> In 12 years every human on earth will spend every waking hour at wikipedia
<mav> there will be many new eyeballs enven in a couple months
<mav> :)
<brion> aaahhhh
<brion> my servers... melting...
<mav> I'd like us to have a two week long fund drive the first half of december ; offer gift cards and remind people about tax deductions
<TimShell> We already talked about December
<TimShell> We were going to focus on corporate giving
<innocence> what is a gift card?
<dannyisme> a gft to the wikimedia foundation has been made in your honor
<innocence> ah
<mav> "A donation in the name of X" that people could buy for one another
<innocence> how vain :)
<brion> hahaha
<dannyisme> actually, innocence, very popular
<innocence> yeah, it is a common vice
<brion> you can edit this donation right now
<dannyisme> when my dad died, we asked people to donate to the canadian cancer society instead of sending flowers
<dannyisme> they sent gift cards
<Angela> I was thinking gift cards were like Christmas cards with Wikimedia adverts on them. Maybe CafePress could do those :)
<dannyisme> a donation has been made in his honor
<TimShell> Are we done then ?
<dannyisme> we can do things like graduation gift cards
<TimShell> I'll post a summary of conclusions and inconclusions on meta
<dannyisme> in honor of your graduation, a gift has been made to the wikimedia foundation
<TimShell> Hopefully prior to the meeting tomorrow
<MikeSnow> Summary: Get credit card processing set up
<MikeSnow> Plan for next fundraiser (publicity
<MikeSnow> and BUY SERVERS
<brion> wheeee
<TimShell> schedule fund drive well in advance
<TimShell> In December hit up US corporations for tax-incentivized donations
<innocence> how much money do we have left?
<TimShell> Get on corporate charity rosters
<TimShell> Terry will approach coroprations about sponsoring the next fund drive
<TimShell> Find some good way to acknowledge donors
<innocence> (we need to know how many servers to buy :)
<mav> kids love to get those :)
<mav> we can have a contest for the design of the card
<TimShell> Publicize fund drive so it is brought to attention of wider audience
<mav> I think so
<mav> several card types - yes
<TerryFoote> TimShell: BUT....
<mav> but we need somebody in the office to handle sending out the card
<dannyisme> kira will design the card
<mav> s
<mav> when is the meeting tomorrow?
<TerryFoote> We need some type of concensus on what my pitch to them will be.
<dannyisme> that is me, mav
<mav> press release
<mav> lots of servers
<mav> early December
<dannyisme> i do mailings
<Angela> TerryFoote: that can be drafted on meta.
<TerryFoote> On what's in it for them
<mav> Innocence ; I dunno - MDavis is keeping the books atm
<TimShell> Terry: we can discuss that tomorrow
<TerryFoote> Angela: beautiful
<mav> dannyisme ; you'll need help - that is a rather menial task ; perfect for interns
<dannyisme> i like menial tasks and the clash
<dannyisme> dsandanista will be perfect for that
<TerryFoote> TimShell: Cool. I won't be around tomorrow, so if you can email me the gist of the conclusion, I'd be most appreciative.
<Angela> 2 hours is too long for an IRC meeting.
<TimShell> No kidding
<TimShell> Terry can you crash to officers meeting ?
<TimShell> Would anyone object ?
<Angela> as long as the meeting is less than 2 hours, I shan't object ;)
<mav> I don't - he should be in the meeting
<TimShell> Come to the meeting Terry
<TerryFoote> When is it?
<dannyisme> terry should be there
<dannyisme> if he can
<TimShell> 16:00 UTC
<TerryFoote> Tomorrow?
<TimShell> Which I think is 9 AM Las Vegas time
<TimShell> yes tomorrow
<TerryFoote> OK, I can do that.
<cimon> dannyisme, I would never have figured you for a clash fan
<TimShell> Mention my name and you get in for half price
<TerryFoote> Is Las Vegas Pacific time?
<TimShell> yes
<Angela> I thought it was 18 UTC.
<TimShell> Today's was 18
<mav> what is the meeting about?
<TerryFoote> Sooooo....shall we have a pre-arranged time limit?
<TimShell> Jimmy is chairint
<dannyisme> btw, we have 90k in paypal right now
<TimShell> chairing
<cimon> dannyisme, beastie boys are much more legit imo
<TimShell> so whatever he wants it to be about I guess
<TimShell> But see the agenda here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_agenda
<Angela> I thought Anthere couldn't do meetings that early.
<TimShell> It has said 16:00 UTC for weeks
<TimShell> Anthere didn't say anything to me about it
<mav> the meeting will still likely be going on and on by the time she gets there :)\
<Angela> TimShell: did you see the talk page?
<TimShell> which talk page ?
<Angela> Http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_meeting_agendas.
<mav> we need to set a time for a budget meeting tomorrow
<Angela> There can't be a budget meeting tomorrow.
<Angela> There's already the chapter meeting then.
<mav> I'd like to have a Q4 budget ready before Q4 starts
<mav> I'll also create drafts for all of 2006
<TimShell> Angela - the organizaion of meetings part ?
<Angela> Yes, probably.
<TimShell> Yes I saw that
<mav> aside : quarter naming will be weird next year ; the first quarter of 2006 will be called Fiscal 2006 Q3
<TimShell> Are we changing our fiscal year ?
<mav> aleady did
<TimShell> What is next quarter ?
<mav> June 30 is the last day of our fiscal year now
<mav> I'm still calling it Q4, but it really is Fiscal 2006 Q2
<TimShell> We have the same fiscal year as Microsoft then
<mav> lovely :)
<TimShell> I suggest everyone leave now
<mav> k
  • dannyisme is now known as dannynaps
  • mav is now known as mav-away
  • MikeSnow has left #wikimedia-meeting

Session Close: Sat Sep 17 13:02:16 2005