Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Hainanese 2

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submitted verification final decision

Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy).

The language committee needs to verify the language is eligible to be approved.

  • Check that the project does not already exist (see list).
  • Obtain an ISO 639 code
  • Ensure the requested language is sufficiently unique that it could not exist on a more general wiki.
  • Ensure that there are a sufficient number of native editors of that language to merit an edition in that language.

    This proposal is on hold:

    On hold, pending evaluation of SIL request 2019-062. But please also see my comment below. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Language code  (SILGlottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Hainanese Language name in English
Language name 瓊語/ 琼语/ 海南話/ 海南话/ 海南語/ Hái-nâm-oe Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q934541 - item has currently the following values: Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality LTR Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.

Project name "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads yes Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone UTC "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
submit Phabricator task. It will include everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings. After creating the task, add a link to the comment.


Hainanese is a branch of the Min Nan group of Chinese spoken in the southern Chinese islands and province of Hainan. It is mutually unintelligible with other Min Nan dialects, such as Teochew and Hokkien–Taiwanese. Its pronunciation is very different from other languages in the whole world -It has the complete Clicks sound pronunciation system. So it's very valuable. But now, the Mandarian Chinese is attacking the Hainanese language culture. And it's a danger in Hainanese language culture. We must try to protect it. Audio recordings in Hainanese, Chinese History Forum:Hainanese Dialect, Hainanese Pronunciation Lesson


Arguments in favour[edit]

Arguments against[edit]

Other discussion[edit]

Obtaining a Hainanese ISO-639-3 language code[edit]

@StevenJ81: It looks like that, per SIL request 2019-062, there's a proposal to use nzq for Hainanese, should we on hold this proposal in favor of that SIL request? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:39, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea, and I've done that. But that having been said: I think people need to stop and consider the question of whether the Min languages are mutually intelligible in writing. The fact that pronunciation system is different is largely not relevant to a written project like this. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know, in addition to writing Hainanese in Chinese characters, there are two other writing schemes for Hainanese, namely Hainanese Romanized and Hainanese Transliteration Scheme, which are different from the rest of the Min writing schemes. // 據我所知,除了用漢字書寫海南話之外,海南話還有兩套的書寫方案,即海南話白話字和海南話拼音方案,與其他閩語的書寫方案有不同。--Kitabc12345 (talk) 07:18, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In 2008, Hainanese Wikipedia[edit]

Hainanese Subgroup[edit]

Hainanese Subgroup(海南话方言片區)


  • Hainanese and Minnan actually use similar Chinese characters, but the pronunciation and interpretation of some words are different. If one person speaks Hainanese but the other person only understands Minnan, he can only understand about half. Because of this, some literature points out that Hainan dialect and Minnan dialect are almost two different sets of languages and cannot be considered as one of the dialects of Minnan dialect.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 10:00, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Sabon Harshe: Although Hainanese and Minnan similar to the Chinese characters used, their pronunciation is different, so the pinyin is different. Minnan Wikipedia used Pe̍h-ōe-jī and Official romanization scheme for Taiwanese Hokkien as the written text. But Hainanese's romanization is different, so it may not be possible to make it part of Minnan Wikipedia. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 09:57, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

2019-062 rejected[edit]

Dear all participates @Casliber, StevenJ81, Explosivo, C933103, and Kitabc12345:@Sabon Harshe:, The request to split the code element [nan] for Min Nan Chinese and create the codes [nzl] Leizhou Min Chinese, [nzq] Hainanese, [nzn] Datian Min Chinese, [nzc] Chaoshan Min Chinese and [nzh] Hokkien Chinese is rejected. The request to elevate the major dialects of Min Nan Chinese is based on an opening assertion that the varieties are not mutually intelligible, but then proceeds to argue in terms of issues general to China rather than evidence of specifics. The consensus of scholarly opinion (as reflected in Glottolog) appears to be to treat them as the dialects of a language. Furthermore, An Encyclopedia of the 140 Languages of China (W. Shearer and H.Sun, 2017) treats Min Nan Chinese as a dialect of the Chinese Language Complex and the varieties in question as subdialects. The Registrar has thus chosen to follow the preponderance of scholarship in leaving the varieties of Min Nan Chinese as dialects. Therefore we can reject this RFL now? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:29, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ISO cited glottolog as a reason to reject the request yet one of the source for glottolog's current classification is a similar ISO document from a decade ago. That's basically circular reference. Other sources in glottolog describe Hainanese as a dialect as much as they describe Min Nan as a dialect or even Min as a whole as a dialect, that cannot support the classification of Min Nan as a language while classifying Hainan as a dialect. I would recommend departing from the ISO standard for practical purpose. C933103 (talk) 12:45, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is mentioned in the document that The request to elevate the major dialects of Min Nan Chinese is based on an opening assertion that the varieties are not mutually intelligible. In fact, Hainanese and most Min dialects are not mutually intelligible. In terms of consonants, the consonants in Hainanese do not have the opposite of aspirated and non-aspirated, which is rare in Chinese variants. The aspirated sounds / pʰ /, / tʰ /, / t͡sʰ /, / kʰ / in Min Nan are pronounced as fricative / f /, / h /, / s /, / x / in Hainanese. / P /, / t / in other Min dialects are pronounced as implosions / ɓ /, / ɗ / in Hainanese. Other initials of / s / and part of / ts / in Min dialect are read as / t / in Hainanese, so that Hainanese and Quanzhang dialect and Chaoshan dialect of Minnan are not mutually intelligible. I don't think we have relevant literature to support this theory. Especially about the special features of Hainanese and other Minnan dialects. Someone in the Chinese Wikipedia template pointed out a note, referring to one: Hainanese and Leizhou Min Chinese were originally Minnanese Qiongwen films and Leizhou films, respectively, and they are all underlined now, and they are listed as Qionglei words directly under the Fujian language. Finger 2: Hainanese and Leizhou Min Chinese are both directly belonging to the Min language in "Language Atlas of China", but some scholars believe that the two are closely related to form Qiong lei Min Chinese (瓊雷話). Both Hainanese and Leizhou Min Chinese were born from ancient Minnan. At the end of the Song Dynasty, due to the war, a large number of Minnanese left their hometown and migrated to the coastal areas of Leizhou Peninsula and Hainan Island. They lived adjacent to Lin Gao people for a long time, and the Minnan language they spoke was in linguistic contact with Lin Gao language (belonging to Kra–Dai languages). In addition, they were geographically isolated from Minnan area, with intonation and vocabulary. It is so different that it is difficult to communicate. Since Hainanese and Leizhou Min Chinese are directly Min languages in "Language Atlas of China", it is enough to prove the difference between Hainanese and other Min Chinese and Hainanese is not Min Chinese dialect. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 14:49, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    But then, IANA BCP47 subtag list does also not include any subtags for "dialects" of Min Nan, it also only repeats how the SIL's classification is like:
Type: language
Subtag: nan
Description: Min Nan Chinese
Added: 2009-07-29
Macrolanguage: zh 
Type: extlang
Subtag: nan
Description: Min Nan Chinese
Added: 2009-07-29
Preferred-Value: nan
Prefix: zh
Macrolanguage: zh 

This means that the "Under very unusual circumstances, and provided there has first been an effort to obtain an ISO 639–3 code, the Language Committee may be willing to consider projects in languages having a valid BCP 47 language tag. Languages having neither an ISO 639 code nor a BCP 47 tag will not be considered under any circumstances." even doesn't applied here, so at least I see no reason why this request can't be rejected. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:10, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Comment I agree Liu. that Wikipedia isn't suitable for Hainanese for the time being, should better use Wikia or Miraheze to start an encyclopedia website in Hainanese. -- 23:46, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, there was already a Hainanese encyclopedia project on Wikia in December 2012, but now there are only 10 articles, 0 active users and 384 editors, and it is now abandoned. Hainanese Encyclopedia's latest operation was on October 23, 2016.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 07:28, 4 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Re-apply for ISO 639-3 code[edit]

In fact, I am dissatisfied that Glottolog has not approved ISO 639-3 for Hainanese. The strangest thing is that Hainanese is not included in ISO 639-3, but Cun language is included. Obviously, there are not so many Cun language users, and Lexical similarity with standard Hlai is 40%. In contrast, Hainanese have different vocabulary (Hainan Romanized and Hainanese Transliteration Scheme) and tone from other Min. But we have no literature to point it out. Among them, Glottolog mentioned in the comment that The request to elevate the major dialects of Min Nan Chinese is based on an opening assertion that the varieties are not mutually intelligible. Hainanese may meet this requirement, but the Min Nan Chinese dialect of other applications is This requirement may not be met. I think Glottolog needs a separate look at Hainanese, and maybe there is a chance to grab the code. Therefore, I request to re-apply for the ISO 639-3 code. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 09:57, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kitabc12345: By "Cun language" you mean this? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:28, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Kitabc12345:, in 2017 there was an ISO 639-3 request for Sichuanese which was rejected with the following reason: "The RA notes that the request ignores one key basis for decisions: that languages which use the same written language may be considered a single language. Although the evidence shows divergence in the spoken variety of .... that might be sufficient to call it a separate language, it is still a part of the Mandarin dialects and using standard written Chinese....Therefore the current request ....has been rejected." (source).
If you are intending to create a Hainanese Wikipedia written in the Hainanese Romanized alphabet, then you may yet have a chance to plead your case, however if you wish to create Hainanese articles solely in Han characters, then your endeavor will not succeed and will be rejected by, in fact it will be met by stiff opposition from Chinese linguists and other Chinese netizens both in the Mainland and abroad. --Ernesztina (talk) 07:58, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ernesztina:, I think this argument is ridiculous because almost all dialects in China are written in Chinese characters, I think they are not part of Chinese, but separate languages. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 08:16, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hainanese Wikipedia can refer to the Minnan Wikipedia for add Bbánlám pìngyīm and Chinese characters note. Like Hainan Romanized add Chinese characters note. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 08:16, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Kitabc12345: The Bân-lâm-gú word lookup can be found online, however no such online dictionary could be found for Hainanese. I have therefore created a table here. If you and others could fill in the Romanized Hainanese equivalents of those words, then I can help setup a translation tool for Hainanese. --Ernesztina (talk) 09:19, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I would try and fill it. Thank you for your help. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 09:25, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Comment I was tried to file a new request in the last week, but SIL quickly rejected my email because "new requests for a rejected language entity should not be repeated within 2 years". --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:44, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What a weird rule is this...--Kitabc12345 (talk) 08:14, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed that the Code Change History of 639 Identifier Documentation: zho was updated on January 23, 2020. The update includes the addition of a batch of languages for the qualification of new members, including Hainan Min Chinese but I cannot find the new code. I also noticed that Change Request Documentation: 2019-065 wrote "rejected", maybe they need to clarify it. (May be affected by COVID-19) --Kitabc12345 (talk) 08:37, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea that why the "rejected" change requests were also repeated by iso639-3:zho. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:19, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If you're asking how the 2019-065 request was proceed, well per [1]: The request is based on the requests to split several members of the [zho] macrolanguage. Of these five requests, 2019-061 through 2019-064 have been rejected, but the request for 2019-060 was accepted. Therefore, the two languages created through that request are treated as additional members of the macrolanguage Chinese [zho]. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:12, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Liuxinyu970226: ok, It seems that this problem is difficult to solve, but I deeply believe that Hainanese has his own independent ISO 639-3 code, because Southern Min speaks cannot understand Hainanese at all. Just like Min Bei Chinese speakers cannot understand Southern Min speaks.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 16:26, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone should refer to this page to see how big the difference is between Romanization of Hainanese and Other Min languages... --Kitabc12345 (talk) 16:54, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, I feel that Shaojiang Min Chinese [sjc], Hainan Min Chinese [nzq], Leizhou Min Chinese [nzl], Datian Min Chinese [nzn], Chaoshan Min Chinese [nzc], Hokkien Chinese [nzh] hardly make Southern Min speaks understand too.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 16:32, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Kitabc12345: Shaojiang Min is not able to understand Southern Min, yes, but instead they know the Northern Min, cf. [2]. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:36, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rearrange the plan[edit]

儘管兩年後才先可以重提申請海南話的ISO 639-3代碼,現在亦都可以為海南話維基百科進行準備,另外海南話維基百科在元維基上面的是hold住的。


另外需要針對SIL的回應進行反對的立場,要找一些資料證明與現代閩台片閩南語(泉漳話)無法互通(差異大),另外SIL指無法互通 無法證實這個屬於一種語言,不過中文維基百科的條目指「今日有一些語言學者把海南話單獨劃出歸屬於「閩語大區」,與閩南區並列,成為閩語大區的瓊文區。」

Although it took two years before the application for the Hainanese ISO 639-3 code could be resubmitted, it is now possible to prepare for the Hainanese Wikipedia.

I think some preliminary work should be done now, such as proposing various options, like the Qiong Lei language. (Merge Hainanese and Leizhou dialects)

In addition, we need to stand against SIL’s response. We need to find some materials to prove that it cannot talk with the modern Fujian-Taiwanese Hokkien (Quanzhang languages) (the difference is large). In addition, SIL refers to the inability to communicate and cannot confirm that this belongs to a language, but Chinese Wikipedia The entry refers to "Today, some linguists have classified Hainan dialect as "Min dialect" separately, juxtaposed with Min Nan, and become the Qiongwen district of Min dialect."

--Kitabc12345 (talk) 08:47, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following papers may be helpful for our application code:

This article compares Hainanese and Taiwanese. It say:
The Hainanese dialect differs considerably from the Minnan dialect of the mainland, both phonetically (especially the vowels (声母) ) and vocabularily, to the extent that the two cannot easily communicate.
It say:
The vowels of the Hainanese language are not directly inherited from the "xvayin" (十五音) system of the Xiamen area.
It say:
Hainan has been an immigrant society since ancient times, leaving behind many of the dialectal names of immigrants in Hainan place names. Historically, researchers have argued that the Hainan dialect evolved from the Zhangzhou and Quanzhou dialects of southern Fujian; however, from early Han immigrant origins. The largest number of Putian people are found in Minzhong, so Hainanese should be a synthesis of multiple dialects.
It say:
The view that the Hainanese dialect was formed in the mid to late Ming Dynasty after the Minnan dialect from Fujian Province was broadcasted and changed radically is not consistent with Hainan's human history. Conclusion: Hainanese is a typical example of a language that retains many ancient immigrant languages, and the formation of the Hainanese language is a result of the migration of Chinese and Chu dialects during the Qin and Han dynasties. There are two historical levels of Fuluo immigrant language in the Tang and Song dynasties. And on this basis, it gradually evolved and developed into a modern dialect with strong characteristics of the Min language.
This article is about the necessity of setting up a Hainan dialect TV channel. I believe that the establishment of Hainanese Wikipedia has the same reason.

Additional literature in English is also needed.

--Kitabc12345 (talk) 12:40, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For these reasons, I don't think it's possible to merge the Hainanese Wikipedia with the Minnan Wikipedia, plus the need to apply for the ISO 639-3 code one more time, and to change Glottolog their academic opinion. // 基于上述原因,我认为海南话维基百科是不可能合并闽南语维基百科的,另外需要申请多一次ISO 639-3代码,和改变Glottolog他们的学术意见。--Kitabc12345 (talk) 16:11, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and I inadvertently overlooked some of the comments above about the fact that the pronunciation system is different being largely irrelevant to such a written project. // 噢,我不小心忽略了上方的一些意見,即是發音系統不同的事實與這樣的書面項目基本無關。--Kitabc12345 (talk) 07:25, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But I think SIL should go ahead and give us an ISO 639-3 code based on the pronunciation system, and the Hainanese dialect. The Minnan dialect is so different from that of the mainland, both phonetically (especially in terms of vowels (聲母) ) and vocabulary, that the two are not easily Communication. // 不過我認為SIL應該要根據發音系統,去給我們一個 ISO 639-3 代碼,而海南方言與大陸的閩南方言無論在語音上(尤其是聲母)還是詞彙上都有很大的差異,以至於兩者不容易溝通。--Kitabc12345 (talk) 07:25, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know, in addition to writing Hainanese in Chinese characters, there are two other writing schemes for Hainanese, namely Hainanese Romanized and Hainanese Transliteration Scheme, which are different from the rest of the Min writing schemes. // 據我所知,除了用漢字書寫海南話之外,海南話還有兩套的書寫方案,即海南話白話字和海南話拼音方案,與其他閩語的書寫方案有不同。--Kitabc12345 (talk) 07:26, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, I found out that the Minnan Wikipedia is based on the Xiamen dialect dictionary. It is impossible to merge it. It is impossible for Hainan dialect to use the Xiamen dialect dictionary to write. // 對了我發覺閩南語維基百科他們是根據廈門話的方音字典去編寫的,這個根本就沒有可能合併了,海南話根本沒有可能使用廈門話的方音字典去編寫。--Kitabc12345 (talk) 09:40, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Kitabc12345: 聯絡了一下SIL,ta們表示就這件事,今年可以重新提交申請了,但問題是ta們提出了几個我根本無法自我實現的條件,其中我感覺最難的是ta們要求我有理據反駁ta們拒絕時引用的文獻:An Encyclopedia of the 140 Languages of China (W. Shearer and H.Sun, 2017)(Bing查了一下中文名叫《中国140种语言百科全书》,CNKI的介紹可見[3])。--Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:28, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
ok,我會了解一下。// OK, I'll find out about it. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 03:03, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Re-apply for ISO 639-3 code in 2021[edit]

Some IP users have compiled quite strong evidence that the Hainanese language is independent of the Min Nan language. Hainan WikiProject intends to send these materials to Glottolog within two weeks. // 有ip用戶整理了相當有力的證據,證明海南語是獨立於閩南語的。海南專題打算在兩個星期內把這些材料發送過去Glottolog。--Kitabc12345 (talk) 14:46, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kitabc12345: A probably good news from SIL Change Request Index: 2021-045, which included [hnm] Hai-nam in their splittion request, see also [4]. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:03, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Liuxinyu970226: 我認為這個並不是一個好消息,這打亂了我們原本申請代碼的計劃。因為申請者完全沒有提交反駁上次申請被拒絕獲批代碼的論據,新申請很有可能被拒絕。我們唯有自己再發郵件提交新的反駁論據,包括但不限於:海南閩語不能與另外一種閩方言互相溝通等,避免他們批准後又要等兩年才能再申請的情況。 // I think this is not good news, it disrupted our original plan to apply for the code. Because the applicant has not submitted any arguments against the reasons for the rejection of the previous application, the new application is likely to be rejected. We only have to send another email to submit new counter arguments, including but not limited to the inability of Hainan Min to communicate with another Min Language etc., to avoid the situation that wait two years after approval before applying again. -Kitabc12345 (talk) 15:53, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
可以写补充评论,记得邮件标题带[Comment]。 Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:57, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
謝謝你。我已發送兩封電郵給SIL。 Kitabc12345 (talk) 16:55, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]