Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Hainanese 2

From Meta, a Wikimedia project coordination wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search
main page Request for a new language edition: Wikipedia Hainanese 2
submitted verification final decision
Crystal Clear mimetype file temporary.png Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy).

The language committee needs to verify the language is eligible to be approved.

  • Check that the project does not already exist (see list).
  • Obtain an ISO 639 code
  • Ensure the requested language is sufficiently unique that it could not exist on a more general wiki.
  • Ensure that there are a sufficient number of native editors of that language to merit an edition in that language.

This proposal is on hold:

On hold, pending evaluation of SIL request 2019-062. But please also see my comment below. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code  (SILEthnologue) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Hainanese Language name in English
Language name 琼語 Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q934541 - item has currently the following values:
  • en label = Hainanese
  • native label (P1705) =
  • instance/subclass (P31/P279) = dialect / Southern Min
  • Wikimedia language code (P424) =
  • writing system (P282) =
  • number of speakers (P1098) =


Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Community
You can optionally list your user name if you are an active contributor to the test wiki. Add "N" next to your name if you are a native speaker of this language.
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Settings
Project name xxxxxxx "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads yes Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo 135x135 PNG derivative from a decent SVG image (instructions)
Default project timezone UTC "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example for a Wikisource which would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk"
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
submit phabricator task (includes everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings)

Proposal[edit]

Hainanese is a branch of the Min Nan group of Chinese spoken in the southern Chinese islands and province of Hainan. It is mutually unintelligible with other Min Nan dialects, such as Teochew and Hokkien–Taiwanese. Its pronunciation is very different from other languages in the whole world -It has the complete Clicks sound pronunciation system. So it's very valuable. But now, the Mandarian Chinese is attacking the Hainanese language culture. And it's a danger in Hainanese language culture. We must try to protect it. Audio recordings in Hainanese, Chinese History Forum:Hainanese Dialect, Hainanese Pronunciation Lesson

Discussion[edit]

Arguments in favour[edit]

  • iso639-3:qhn is "Reserved for local use", so I'm doubt if this Wikipedia could be started. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 05:42, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Robert Sneed says yes! --CasetteTapeMaster (talk) 03:03, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes - 5 million speakers. I reckon it's a goer...Casliber (talk) 03:38, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
  • There's a problem here in that there's no ISO code. On the other hand, there are five million speakers. The Wikipedia article suggests that this [language/dialect] is not mutually intelligible with other Southern Han [languages/dialects]. So probably the best bet here is for someone to put in a request at SIL for a language code. If someone provides evidence that there is an application for a language code pending then at least an Incubator project could start. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:39, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
  • As long as it uses Chinese characters, it's okay. Do not create a Latin script for it, that would be inventing the language. --Explosivo (talk) 18:21, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Someone need to talk to SIL and get them split the ISO639 code for Minnan into Hokkien, Chaoshan and Hainanese first (Possibly also Zhongshan Min, Datian Min and Zhenan Min?) In the previous request for Teochew wikipedia, it was mentioned as a way to fulfill the ISO code requirement, however, as the proposal from Teochew code at the time did not resolve the situation regarding other Minnan variants, the proposal did not go through. Although as far as I can tell Hainanese is even more widely recognized as distinct from Minnan, the code still have not been breakaway yet, and thus it will still face the same problem. @CasetteTapeMaster: C933103 (talk) 23:48, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
    @C933103: Note that there's a request (although unrelated) about Sichuanese on SIL, this means that it's also possible to just request a code for Hainanese or Teochew without touching (includes splitting) the nan. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 08:08, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
    • Regardless someone should send write a proposal up and send it to SIL C933103 (talk) 11:15, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support Support It is very different with other Minnans. A map.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 11:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Arguments against[edit]

  • Oppose No ISO code. --117.15.55.228 08:38, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Other discussion[edit]

Obtaining a Hainanese ISO-639-3 language code[edit]

@StevenJ81: It looks like that, per SIL request 2019-062, there's a proposal to use nzq for Hainanese, should we on hold this proposal in favor of that SIL request? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:39, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Good idea, and I've done that. But that having been said: I think people need to stop and consider the question of whether the Min languages are mutually intelligible in writing. The fact that pronunciation system is different is largely not relevant to a written project like this. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

In 2008, Hainanese Wikipedia[edit]

  • By the way, in 2008, someone application of Hainanese Wikipedia.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 11:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
    @Kitabc12345: Hello, as far as I've checked on SIL, there's no ISO code that is used for Hainanese, nor any requests that are about Hainanese in any years, if you're indeed trying to obtain an ISO code for Hainanese, please follow this instruction: Submitting ISO 639-3 Change Requests. Thank you. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:53, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
    • @Liuxinyu970226: I have not applied for the ISO code plan for the time being because the form is too difficult to fill. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 06:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
    • And I am not the initiator of Wikipedia in this language. When I have time, I may fill it out again.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 06:40, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Hainanese Subgroup[edit]

Hainanese Subgroup(海南话方言片區)

  • Hainanese has many dialects and subgroup. But many of them are not interoperable(互通), leading to the same "words" have different ways and meanings.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 05:56, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Like: Fucheng subgroup, Wenchang subgroup, Wanning subgroup, Yaxian subgroup, Changgan subgroup.......--Kitabc12345 (talk) 05:56, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • I believe this should be difficult to solve.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 05:56, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
    • @Kitabc12345: This is far from that you can start testing, any things can call them so as far as possible. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:49, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Minnan[edit]

  • How different is Hainanese from Minnan? Would it be possible to make it part of Minnan Wikipedia? Sabon Harshe (talk) 17:22, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Hainanese and Minnan actually use similar Chinese characters, but the pronunciation and interpretation of some words are different. If one person speaks Hainanese but the other person only understands Minnan, he can only understand about half. Because of this, some literature points out that Hainan dialect and Minnan dialect are almost two different sets of languages and cannot be considered as one of the dialects of Minnan dialect.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 10:00, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

2019-062 rejected[edit]

Dear all participates @Casliber, StevenJ81, Explosivo, C933103, and Kitabc12345:@Sabon Harshe:, The request to split the code element [nan] for Min Nan Chinese and create the codes [nzl] Leizhou Min Chinese, [nzq] Hainanese, [nzn] Datian Min Chinese, [nzc] Chaoshan Min Chinese and [nzh] Hokkien Chinese is rejected. The request to elevate the major dialects of Min Nan Chinese is based on an opening assertion that the varieties are not mutually intelligible, but then proceeds to argue in terms of issues general to China rather than evidence of specifics. The consensus of scholarly opinion (as reflected in Glottolog) appears to be to treat them as the dialects of a language. Furthermore, An Encyclopedia of the 140 Languages of China (W. Shearer and H.Sun, 2017) treats Min Nan Chinese as a dialect of the Chinese Language Complex and the varieties in question as subdialects. The Registrar has thus chosen to follow the preponderance of scholarship in leaving the varieties of Min Nan Chinese as dialects. Therefore we can reject this RFL now? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:29, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

ISO cited glottolog as a reason to reject the request yet one of the source for glottolog's current classification is a similar ISO document from a decade ago. That's basically circular reference. Other sources in glottolog describe Hainanese as a dialect as much as they describe Min Nan as a dialect or even Min as a whole as a dialect, that cannot support the classification of Min Nan as a language while classifying Hainan as a dialect. I would recommend departing from the ISO standard for practical purpose. C933103 (talk) 12:45, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
  • It is mentioned in the document that The request to elevate the major dialects of Min Nan Chinese is based on an opening assertion that the varieties are not mutually intelligible. In fact, Hainanese and most Min dialects are not mutually intelligible. In terms of consonants, the consonants in Hainanese do not have the opposite of aspirated and non-aspirated, which is rare in Chinese variants. The aspirated sounds / pʰ /, / tʰ /, / t͡sʰ /, / kʰ / in Min Nan are pronounced as fricative / f /, / h /, / s /, / x / in Hainanese. / P /, / t / in other Min dialects are pronounced as implosions / ɓ /, / ɗ / in Hainanese. Other initials of / s / and part of / ts / in Min dialect are read as / t / in Hainanese, so that Hainanese and Quanzhang dialect and Chaoshan dialect of Minnan are not mutually intelligible. I don't think we have relevant literature to support this theory. Especially about the special features of Hainanese and other Minnan dialects. Someone in the Chinese Wikipedia template pointed out a note, referring to one: Hainanese and Leizhou Min Chinese were originally Minnanese Qiongwen films and Leizhou films, respectively, and they are all underlined now, and they are listed as Qionglei words directly under the Fujian language. Finger 2: Hainanese and Leizhou Min Chinese are both directly belonging to the Min language in "Language Atlas of China", but some scholars believe that the two are closely related to form Qiong lei Min Chinese (瓊雷話). Both Hainanese and Leizhou Min Chinese were born from ancient Minnan. At the end of the Song Dynasty, due to the war, a large number of Minnanese left their hometown and migrated to the coastal areas of Leizhou Peninsula and Hainan Island. They lived adjacent to Lin Gao people for a long time, and the Minnan language they spoke was in linguistic contact with Lin Gao language (belonging to Kra–Dai languages). In addition, they were geographically isolated from Minnan area, with intonation and vocabulary. It is so different that it is difficult to communicate. Since Hainanese and Leizhou Min Chinese are directly Min languages in "Language Atlas of China", it is enough to prove the difference between Hainanese and other Min Chinese and Hainanese is not Min Chinese dialect. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 14:49, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
    But then, IANA BCP47 subtag list does also not include any subtags for "dialects" of Min Nan, it also only repeats how the SIL's classification is like:
%%
Type: language
Subtag: nan
Description: Min Nan Chinese
Added: 2009-07-29
Macrolanguage: zh 
%%
...
%%
Type: extlang
Subtag: nan
Description: Min Nan Chinese
Added: 2009-07-29
Preferred-Value: nan
Prefix: zh
Macrolanguage: zh 
%%

This means that the "Under very unusual circumstances, and provided there has first been an effort to obtain an ISO 639–3 code, the Language Committee may be willing to consider projects in languages having a valid BCP 47 language tag. Languages having neither an ISO 639 code nor a BCP 47 tag will not be considered under any circumstances." even doesn't applied here, so at least I see no reason why this request can't be rejected. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:10, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Comment Comment I agree Liu. that Wikipedia isn't suitable for Hainanese for the time being, should better use Wikia or Miraheze to start an encyclopedia website in Hainanese. --117.136.55.121 23:46, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
In fact, there was already a Hainanese encyclopedia project on Wikia in December 2012, but now there are only 10 articles, 0 active users and 384 editors, and it is now abandoned. Hainanese Encyclopedia's latest operation was on October 23, 2016.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 07:28, 4 February 2020 (UTC)