User talk:StevenJ81

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User SUL Box[edit]

Hey Steven,

I see you have reworked the User SUL Box template back in 2015. It seems this change broke the template for less common interface languages. If I visit m:User:Wim b for example, it indicates Wim b's home wiki were the Lithuanian language Wiktionary and additionally presents me with some redlink (my interface language is Lithuanian). Could you please look into this issue?

Thanks a lot, --Vogone (talk) 15:30, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

@Vogone: I will do that. Give me a day or two to manage that. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:35, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
@Vogone: I think it's fixed. Want to give it a spin? StevenJ81 (talk) 17:31, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Thanks! However, with this solution the template docs no longer match the behaviour of the template, as it indicates the default were one's interface language (which makes me wonder what the original intention was, does not look particularly useful to me). I suppose that either the docs should be updated to reflect that new behaviour (en = default), or a solution should be found where the template does not break when a user visits using an interface language which either has no language edition of that project, or no language template created here on meta. --Vogone (talk) 23:51, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Reasonable point. Will work on it further tomorrow. (I think maybe we will have to require a language code on Meta; a default to one's own interface language will always provide odd results on multilingual wikis.) StevenJ81 (talk) 02:30, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
@Vogone: I've thought about this further, and I'm pretty sure we need to change the behavior here. After all, if it depends on the "current interface language"—and until two days ago, it did—then if I change my own interface language (say, to French), then my default project also changes, from enwiki to frwiki. Or, alternatively, when I look at my page, I see enwiki, but if you look at my page, you see ltwiki. (Bad example: I had |1=en. But you see my point.) And those possibilities make no sense.
  • In theory, we could make the straight default (no parameters) to be Meta, which is what is done on many other projects. But I think that's been rejected here in the past, as Meta is rarely the place most people really call their home project.
  • Really, then, the question is: Should we require a langcode here, and not have a default at all? Or should we just go ahead and use en (as the principal language of this wiki), simply making sure we document that fact.
  • Once we finish discussing this, I'm thinking that I will announce it in two different ways: On Babel, and by building in a notice and link on the template itself, so people may see it on their own user pages.
Concerning your questions about "breaking", I think with this update in behavior, the template should generally never break unless there is no language template on Meta:
  • Any [[:langcode:projcode]] combination should go to a project, or to Incubator, or Old Wikisource, or Beta Wikiversity. I think. (If it's really an invalid combination, there will probably be a web error, but I'm not so worried about that.)
  • I'm happy to invite anyone who can't create a language icon to ask me to do so. Or we could redo these so that they run #ifexist on the language icon template, and in the case of no template return the language code itself.
I look forward to your input. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
@Vogone: We should probably wrap this up, no?
I had one other thought. In the case that a multilingual project (Meta, Incubator, Commons, etc.) is someone's home wiki, we can default to interface language. Is that worth trying? StevenJ81 (talk) 22:33, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Wikisource Literary Chinese[edit]

Maybe, you can see the paper by Y.R.Chao, Languages and Dialects in China.--Bobo alcazar (talk) 09:42, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

@Bobo alcazar: You made your point with respect to whether lzh is distinctive enough as a language. I don't actually disagree on that. But policy actually allows either solution here (separate project or included in Chinese Wikisource), and all other indicators (and all other contributors) prefer the other approach. So that is probably how it will go. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:15, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Mr. Steve, I feel that the issue has deviated. The previous discussion on the necessity has long been over, and now it is discussing the feasibility, but there are still people who have opinions taht LZH Wikisource should not set up.--Bobo alcazar (talk) 06:31, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Talk to us about talking[edit]

Trizek (WMF) 15:08, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

French gender-neutral language[edit]

Hi,

I found several traces of gender-neutral edits in french translations on Meta: example 1 and 2. The problem of this écriture inclusive is that it isn't french (see "Déclaration de l'Académie française sur l'écriture dite inclusive". ) and it makes long texts unclear and hard to read (plus fr.wp decided to forbid it). Could the Langcom make a statement about it ? Should I start a RfC ? (I'm talking of this to you because of your fr-3)

Thank you --CreativeC (talk) 17:28, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

@CreativeC: Why don't you just use the {{GENDER}} magic word? --2409:8902:9300:5626:94EA:1CA4:AD4B:6023 03:53, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Because we don't only speak of the user. If I talk about participants (male only or male & female) I say les participants , and les participantes if I talk about female participants only - Adjectives are gendered. Feminists want's to write les participant·e·s (the ·e· "includes" females) despite the fact that masculine is neutral in French, but they struggle to understand it. The core problem is that this écriture inclusive isn't compatible with french - this is a core rule of french: because of huge francophone litterature/culture/cinema; language modifications must be backward compatible. -- CreativeC (talk) 12:35, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
@CreativeC: IP6 user doesn't really understand the problem. Don't worry ...
This is probably not an actual LangCom problem, oddly enough. LangCom does not decide language standards within projects—even within multilingual projects like this. (Consider: How would French Wikipédia feel about LangCom telling it what standards to use for French?) Instead, this is probably a Meta community issue, meaning it should be discussed at Meta:Babel. (It would separately need to be discussed on the corresponding pages of other multilingual projects.)
That having been said, it's a good question how easy it would be to enforce, anyway. And at that, even if the community can enforce it on French translation pages, nobody is going to try to enforce it on talk pages, where people can (mostly) do as they please. If you want to go to Babel and start a discussion, I'm willing to put a voice of support up. But at the end of the day, the community is going to decide. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:26, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be a Requests for comment ? About fr.wp we could imagine that it is a movement-wide guideline by default (if adopted) that french wikis could reject individually --CreativeC (talk) 18:38, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
@CreativeC: Hmmm. Maybe. You can try that approach. But I suspect a lot of people would say that rather than creating a movement-wide guideline (which usually is not done around such issues), it is better for individual wiki communities to decide. (To be perfectly honest, I also suspect many people on projects like Meta would prefer political correctness to linguistic correctness, provided that clarity is not meaningfully compromised. Although Standard English is more gender-neutral than Standard French, in theory masculine pronouns serve in neutral roles, too. But people go out of their way to write around that sort of construction quite a lot these days. There is far more reason to be strict on a French-language wiki than on a site like this, in my view.)
Alternatively, start with a local RfC at Meta:Requests for comment and see what happens. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:30, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
I’ll try the global RfC directly because most multi-lingual wikis don’t have enough french speakers to reach concensus and we need to harmonize language practices across wikis (but of course let wikis override it individually) --CreativeC (talk) 21:16, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Tech News: 2019-10[edit]

16:38, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Tech News: 2019-11[edit]

19:29, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Tech News: 2019-12[edit]

19:44, 18 March 2019 (UTC)