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Good day! Hello from abwiki.

Today I want talking with different (difficult) case of problems.

First problem. I in abkazian language as you know we have words which are beginning with A (Cyrillic) letter, but not all of them. If we'll go categories, then we must see most of word under the symbol "A". I know you'll say "yes of source it is sorting like this because word beginning with A letter and this system work in all wiki"!


yes of course Abkazian words most of them originally begin with A letter but each word has its own root/base.

Look, if you open Abkhazian vocabulary 515 page you'll see:


  • .
  • .
  • .
  • А́-мҩарбаҩ - (А́-мҩарбаҩ - it is grammar form. in wikipedia we wright just Амҩарбаҩ)
  • А́-мҩасырҭа - ((Амҩасырҭа in wikipedia)this word root/base begin with М letter and otherwise should be collect under the М letter)
  • А́-мҩасра
  • А́-мҩасҩы
  • А́-мҩахгара
  • А́-мҩахҟьара
  • А́-мҩахырҟьара
  • А-мҩахы́ҵра
  • А́-мҩахыҵырҭа
  • А-мхəа́сҭа
  • А-мџь
  • А́-мџьаӷь
  • А́–мџьахьа


  • На - (this word root/base begin with Н letter and otherwise should be collect under the Н letter)
  • А́-наа - ((Анаа in wikipedia)this word root/base begin with Н letter and otherwise should be collect under the Н letter)
  • А-наа́лара - ((Анаалара in wikipedia)this word root/base begin with Н letter and otherwise should be collect under the Н letter)
  • А-наа́лашьа - ((Анаалашьа in wikipedia)this word root/base begin with Н letter and otherwise should be collect under the Н letter)
  • А-наа́леҭ - ((Анаалеҭ in wikipedia)this word root/base begin with Н letter and otherwise should be collect under the Н letter)

This was one problem! :-)

Second problem in Abkhazian vocabulary arise with letters, because we beside original letters have digraphs too. quantity of digraphs are about 20 (қь, қә, ҟь, ҟә, ҕь, ҕә, ҧь, ҧә...). Problem is weeder in sorting. For example in classical wiki sorting system words: аҟаҵара, аҟьамсар, аҟәара... would be under the Cyrillic ҟ letter. And this is a mistake, because words should be collect in its own letter: аҟаҵара (а-ҟаҵара, root is ҟаҵара) - ҟ, аҟьамсар (а-ҟьамсар, root is ҟьамсар) - ҟь, аҟәара (а-ҟәара, root is ҟәара) - ҟә.

nowadays most of words in Categories sorted under the A letter.

third problem is in sorting system. look et this. Here under the letter A you can see words: Агкқәа, Алаҳаӡы, Амгәашхәҵа, Арасаӡыхь (Гагра), Аҟәара, Аҭыӡҭа, Аҳәыҳәшәара, Аҽмарда, Аҿыҧсҭа. This is not correct sorting because Аҟәара should stay front of Арасаӡыхь (Гагра). The abkhazian alphabet sequence should be following like in the vocabulary in book or like on that link.

It's all! :-)--Surprizi (talk) 06:22, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

I wonder if this is something that mw:Manual:$wgCategoryCollation would solve, although I don't see that language supported yet. User:BWolff (WMF), User:Matma Rex, am I wrong? --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 09:28, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Elitre (WMF) is correct in both cases. We currently do not support Abkhazian (and neither does ICU, the library which we use to sort). But I think we could add support for it fairly easily, using the system that User:BWolff (WMF) previously implemented for Bashkir (see phab:T162823). I will investigate this and reply here soon. Surprizi, I'll probably need you to clarify a few things for me, as I don't speak Abkhazian :) (and I can only barely read Cyrillic script). Matma Rex (talk) 22:13, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Can you please confirm:

  • Is this the correct sorting order of letters and digraphs? А • Б • В • Г • Гь • Гә • Ҕ • Ҕь • Ҕә • Д • Дә • Е • Ж • Жь • Жә • З • Ӡ • Ӡә • И • К • Кь • Кә • Қ • Қь • Қә • Ҟ • Ҟь • Ҟә • Л • М • Н • О • П • Ҧ • Р • С • Т • Тә • Ҭ • Ҭә • У • Ф • Х • Хь • Хә • Ҳ • Ҳә • Ц • Цә • Ҵ • Ҵә • Ч • Ҷ • Ҽ • Ҿ • Ш • Шь • Шә • Ы • Ҩ • Џ • Џь • ь • ә. I've taken this fromАҧсуа_алфавит, and it is also identical to the alphabet in the dictionary you linked, on page 3 (except that the dictionary used "ə U+0259 LATIN SMALL LETTER SCHWA" instead of "ә U+04D9 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER SCHWA", which I assume is a mistake, as the characters are visually identical).
  • Should the letter "А"/"а" at the beginning of every word always be ignored when sorting? (Does this apply to every word in the page title, or only to the first word?) Should the same happen with "А́"/"а́"?
  • Should the digraphs be treated as separate letters, e.g. have their own headings on category pages, like in Hungarian:ória:Az_Európai_Unió_tagállamai?
  • Should "ь" and "ә", when they are not part of a digraph, actually be sorted after all other letters? (Or is it just a convention because they can never appear at the beginning of a word or something?)

Also, note that when this is implemented, you will need to use special syntax in category sort keys ({{DEFAULTSORT:…}}) in cases where the characters belonging to a digraph have to be treated separately, or where the beginning "А"/"а" should not be ignored – for example, in foreign-language place names. On Hungarian Wikipedia they have a template for this:áf. Matma Rex (talk) 02:47, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

I confirm that your sorting order of letters and digraphs is correct. You may not to add last two letters in this order. In the book one letter is used Latin instead Russian. Should he Russian letters! Unfortunately we don't ignore letter A in all word. For example word Аҧсуа base bigining with letter A. There are lot of words in Abkhazian which roots starts with A. So I think to do automatically should be incorrect. I think better do it manually. with "А́"/"а́" no words are begin! This acute is like Russian. Yes, digraphs be treated as separate letters, e.g. have their own headings on category pages, like in Hungarian:ória:Az_Európai_Unió_tagállamai

In Abkhazian letters ь and ә is not used with other letters like Russian. In Abkhazian they are part of digraphs. This letters are materials to build digraphs no more.Surprizi (talk) 04:15, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

(I don't know if I'm more moved by Matma's intervention - thanks for saving the day, as always! - or by the fact that I guessed that thing! \o/ Hope support for ab. can happen. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 08:40, 15 December 2017 (UTC) )

@Surprizi: Sorry for late response.

  • I think you'll have to handle the beginning "А" specially in each page – on pages where it must be ignored, use For example, on the page "Анаалара", add {{DEFAULTSORT:наалара}} before the list of categories. ("DEFAULTSORT" could be translated to Abkhazian, but there's no translation for it right now.)
  • In the rare case that "ь" or "ә" appear at the beginning of page title (for example in an article about the letter – there isn't one on yet, but like this:Ә_(кириллица) ), they should be sorted at the end, correct?

I started working on the code, see phab:T183430. Can you confirm that the page order in the two screenshots I posted there is correct? Matma Rex (talk) 00:16, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

OK, I agree with you. Sorting system should be controlled mechanikaly with default sorting. As this two letters we have in rare case OK let's lies it on the end side. I also agree with sorting order.-Surprizi (talk) 02:40, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

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