Talk:Universal Code of Conduct

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It seems to me that doxing clause basically forbids public paid editing investigations of any kind. It was like that on English Wikipedia for significant amount of time, but not all projects agree with such baseline. Also, per foundation:Privacy policy it is allowed for Wikimedia staff or "particular users with certain administrative rights" to "share your Personal Information if it is reasonably believed to be necessary to enforce or investigate potential violations of our Terms of Use, this Privacy Policy, or any Wikimedia Foundation or user community-based policies". Undisclosed paid editing is a violation of Wikimedia terms of use, so Privacy policy allows forced disclosure in such cases while current UCoC draft does not. I think it's a serious flaw and should be amended in the UCoC. Another unclear point here is when an editor is a subject of an article and there is a reliable source confirming that this person is a specific Wikipedia editor, but editor himself hasn't consent to publishing this information in-wiki. Does the UCoC forbid to use this source in an article about this person? Adamant.pwn (talk) 12:26, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Another flaw in the total prohibition of "doxing" is where EditorA causes EditorB so much harm that EditorB sees fit to sue EditorA in a court of law where he can obtain financial compensation for the harm done. (Wikimedia can permanently block EditorA, but is almost powerless to prevent EditorA spawning sockpuppets and certainly cannot award EditorB damages. In order to go to court, it is necessary for EditorB to give the court EditorA's name and address which, according to Wikimedia's rules, is prohibited (See for example the fictitious example given in en:Wikipedia:Don't overlook legal threats). Martinvl (talk) 22:17, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
In my understanding the prohibition of "Disclosure of personal data" AKA "Doxing" primarily prohibits edits and creation of new pages with contents like "Ashley Example, 11 years old, phone 001 987 1234567, attends class 4e at Closed School in Nowherebourg TX, and is very gay." I have deleted or hidden a large amount of such edits at SV wiktionary, so this is a real problem. Taylor 49 (talk) 17:34, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
@Taylor 49: That may well be the case, but the letter of CoC goes a lot further. I am pointing out a possible unintended consequence of such a general prohibition without a caveat regarding the process of law, bearing in mind that the Wikimedia Foundation is subject to the Law of the United States and the Law of the State of California. Furthermore, there are many moves in both the UK and the EU to clamp down on the social media giants (and under their definition, Wikipedia is regarded as "social media") and depending on what they come up with, Jimbo, who lives in London, could potentially find himself in the firing line. Martinvl (talk) 22:49, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Basically users are being held responsible for their actions on Wikimedia Projects, not the WMF (ToU). @Martinvl: The WMF UCoC does not have a higher status than local law, so generally speaking a person has to tell private details when that is necessary for the courtcase and permitted by local laws. WMF doesn't accept responsibility for the content in their projects, according to their official legal POV. On the other hand the WMF encourages and uses volunteers / content-creators to enforce their ToU and Policies. Encourages volunteers to delete content where private information of users or others is being published, like @Taylor 49: did. So in day-to-day practice, WMF does take responsibility for content as well. When a German child is being doxed on German Wikipedia and WMF didn't act properly, and the parents go into a German court, it doesn't seem impossible at all that a German judge will find enough touchpoints to form the legal opinion, the case can be brought for a German court, German law is applicable, and WMF is to be hold co-responsible. WMF than can as a next step sue the user. @Martinvl: As for the EU, it probably will not take another 20 years before the first EU based court will decide, normal users with the status of consumer can go into court in their home-region against an Internet platform with it's company seat and server-structure in the US (or China). JustB EU (talk) 19:58, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
So, there is an editor, who attends wiki-meetups but decides to keep their identity private and objects to publication of his personal data. The problem here is that he's also a notable person and has an article on Russian Wikipedia about himself. Article has a picture which is categorized on commons with his real name. And there are some pictures of him taken in meetups, categorized with his Wikimedia user name. Would it violate UCoC to merge these two categories? Or to mention them alongside each other? Adamant.pwn (talk) 19:41, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
And another issue is that UCoC applies to "private, public and semi-public interactions". So, does it mean that even telling someone in private correspondence about other editor's identity is now a severe violation? Adamant.pwn (talk) 13:08, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

What's supposed to happen now?[edit]

BChoo (WMF) what is supposed to happen during Phase 2? Tetizeraz (talk) 21:02, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

@Tetizeraz: Phase 2 will involve community conversations regarding how the UCoC will be enforced. We will have much more information in the next few weeks, which I will post on meta as soon as I am able to. BChoo (WMF) (talk) 22:18, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
BChoo (WMF) Per Universal_Code_of_Conduct#Current_news wasn't the board supposed to review and approve it first? Is that review still ongoing? Vexations (talk) 23:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
@Vexations: We hope to hear word on this soon. BChoo (WMF) (talk) 18:00, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
@Vexations: The final text as drafted by the Drafting Committee has been approved by the Board after some changes, per the 9th of December 2020. (WMF Board, Resolution: Approval Universal Code of Conduct).

UCoC enforcement[edit]

@BChoo (WMF): & @Xeno (WMF): From the official WMF Board Resolution can be learned that the UCoC is an enforceable policy as of December 9th 2020 (see: WMF Board, Resolution: Approval Universal Code of Conduct). You mention community conversations in phase 2 regarding how UCoC will be enforced. What are the fields of unclearity here? How shall local Wikipedia volunteer enforcers act today when a user comes up with a serious and motivated enforcement-request regarding behaviour that's being described as Unacceptable in the UCoC but not being mentioned in the ToU? Thanks, keep up! FYI: Tetizeraz & Vexations ? JustB EU (talk) 15:15, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the engaging question JustB EU. The approach in that situation would have to depend on the type of problem being reported. I hope the responding user - if they felt available and capable to do so - would take steps to support the user, consider their situation, connect with their perspective, and respond in a way intended to reduce harm.
"I understand why that is troubling, and I'm sorry you're experiencing this. You made the right decision in reaching out and I want to help you with this situation. If you are able and comfortable to do so, could you email your concern to (e.g. local admins / Arbitration Committee / Stewards / other supporting pathways )? This group is well-equipped to respond to situations such as the one you described. If you are unable to do so, I can contact them on your behalf."
In a serious situation where a contributor is feeling harassed or unsafe, there are existing reporting methods to engage responders who have experience helping users experiencing distress and in addressing novel situations not previously covered by policy or practice. FYI: Tetizeraz & Vexations: pinged earlier. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 20:20, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
@Xeno (WMF): I contribute mainly on English Wikipedia and Portuguese Wikipedia, and Wikidata and the Commons. If I, or someone else in those projects, feel they need help because of something the UCOC mentions, who and where they should contact? Tetizeraz (talk) 20:47, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
{{ping|@Xeno (WMF): pinging again because my last ping missed one ). Tetizeraz (talk) 20:48, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Thanks @Xeno (WMF): for your feedback. Not experiencing heavy harassment but knowing of situations where moderators did tend to act against complaintives or play down complaints, from the POV there are no local rules. Too often people simply leave the project after such an experience. Clear universal rules could be of help to broaden editing communities, therewith diversifying content and attract broader reader groups. In some communities, voices can be heard, expressing not being happy with the UCoC-"lawmaking procedure" and tending not to support the WMF in policing and enforcing the UCoC. So more generally speaking the question is, does the WMF have ideas about dealing with a possible UCoC policing black hole? As long as there is unclearity about who is policing and enforcing the UCoC, maybe the WMF could enable something like a UCoC complaint-handling-center? Or make clear, like Tetizeraz is asking, where users can go for help. Thanks, Keep up! JustB EU (talk) 11:53, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
Tetizeraz and JustB EU: What approach would work best for those communities? In general, the usual pathways should be used: attempting local dispute resolution; contacting local administrators or functionaries when appropriate, and seeking Foundation support in cases of serious harm. It may also be that community participants should determine if adjustments or additions to local policies and guidelines are needed for situations not currently described. I know that English Wikipedia established an Arbitration Committee that signs the Confidentiality agreement for nonpublic information, so that is an option for that particular project. I see Portuguese Wikipedia was mentioned, input can now be provided at pt:Wikipédia:Esplanada/geral/Código_Universal_de_Conduta_(6mai2021). JustB EU, I noticed you did not yet contribute to Talk:Universal Code of Conduct/2021 consultations/Discussion, your input would be useful for the drafting committee to consider, sooner is better! I will also include the remarks in this thread. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 15:45, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Forbidding talking about Conflict of Interests is bad[edit]

Some of the vandalism on Wikidata is due to users wanting to advocate for a particular interest. In conflict between different ethnicities it frequently happens that users who are involved in the conflict because they belong to one of the ethnicities engage in non-neutral editing of pages that are relevant for the content. Being able to say that those users engage in conflict of interest edits is valuable for the goal of having a neutral Wikipedia and currently it seems the draft intends to forbid speaking about ethnicities. When Arbcom takes cases about Jerusalem where Arabian Wikipedia's are in a conflict with Jewish Wikipedians it's important to be able to have a discussion about whether certain members should recuse themselves because they belong in either of those ethic groups. Fordidding to distinguish based on ethnicity would forbid such discussions. ChristianKl❫ 22:22, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

If enacted, your suggestion could mean that we ought to identify and exclude all "Americans" from participating in discussing topics related to all pages related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed. I much prefer a situation where it is not allowed to exclude editors on the basis of a group characteristic. Ethicity does not constitute a conflict of interest. Vexations (talk) 22:47, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
@Vexations: My suggestion is not that all people who have any conflict of interest should automatically recuse themselves or be blocked from doing anything. My claim is that discussion about whether or not in an individual case is strong enough should be allowed.
My claim is that allowing discussions is good and decision about banning certain behavior should be able to happen in individual Wikimedia project. ChristianKl❫ 16:24, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Let me give an example: Saying "I propose that X should be blocked from editing Antisemitism because she has been edit warring to insert unsourced fringe views" is fine. Saying "I propose that X should be blocked from editing Antisemitism because she is a jew" is not. It is fine to discuss X's edits, whether they are indeed fringe etc. But it is absolutely not OK to block X because they are Jewish or even to suggest that her behavior has a causal relationship to her Jewishness. That would be endorsing the belief that groups of humans possess different behavioral traits corresponding to ethnicity. You don't want to advocate for that, I hope. Vexations (talk) 16:58, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Belonging to an ethnic group is not a conflict of interest. --Yair rand (talk) 00:15, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
This could create the situation where User:Y1 and User:Y2, both of whom are rabid Palestinians, propose that User:X, be blocked from editing Antisemitism because she is a Jew. This is also called "mob justice".Martinvl (talk) 21:28, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Maybe people who think in categories like "rabid Palestinians" should urgently be excluded from a number of discussions? Does this debate looks like an attempt to export US-notions of political correctness worldwide? Kipala (talk) 21:11, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
I think the example would have worked better if you'd avoided "Palestinians". We ought not attribute a single viewpoint to an ethnonational group. Vexations (talk) 23:24, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
@Martinvl: A code of conduct doesn't create situations like that. It just prevents certain situations from arising. I don't think that the code of conduct is necessary to prevent such a situation. In the Wikimedia projects that I know, two users who tried that likely will find out that they don't get what they want. In many cases it means that more experienced users will take a look at the situation and thing about how the content dispute should be handeled. ChristianKl❫ 13:30, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
On a daily basis, I am called "Russian" on the English Wikipedia by disruptive users who are unhappy with my administrative actions and imply I should not have taken them because I apparently am biased. (This is also factually incorrect, I am not Russian). Whereas I do not find this amusing, I do not think UCoC should deal with these situations, the community if perfectly capable of taking care of them.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:23, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Interactions outside the projects[edit]

"It applies to all Wikimedia projects, technical spaces, in-person and virtual events, as well as the following instances:

  • private, public and semi-public interactions
  • discussions of disagreement and expression of solidarity across community members
  • issues of technical development
  • aspects of content contribution
  • cases of representing affiliates/communities with external partners."

What exactly does "private, public and semi-public interactions" include? Because, worded like that, it seems like the idea would be to apply a Wikimedia code to non-Wikimedia spaces, and that would be a big problem. For example, if two editors insult each other in a pub, or on Twitter, for whatever reason and I get to know about it, should I then ban them from Wikipedia because of its anti-harassment policy? The only element of that bullet-point list that has any sense, in my opinion, is "cases of representing affiliates/communities with external partners". All the other ones are too vague and open to interpretation and abuse.--L2212 (talk) 21:55, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Allow me to add an "expression of solidarity across community members". I don't understand it either. Vexations (talk) 23:12, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
What alarms me is that by making this statement Wikimedia appears to put itself above courts of law. If User:A libels User:B on Wikimedia pages with the result that User:B incurs a financial loss, then User:B is entitled in most countries to sue User:A through the law courts (assuming that User:B knows User:A's contact details) to make good that loss. Does Wikimedia really put itself above the law courts or had it just not foreseen this possibility? Martinvl (talk) 14:21, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Let's talk translation!!![edit]

Hello all,

I’m the staff person who is coordinating the work to translate the UCoC and other related pages. Our goal is for people who do not read English to have access to the material soon after it is posted to Meta in English. Currently, we have around 10 languages with most of the content translated and next week plan on doing a larger call for volunteers to translate. You can track the progress on the Translation guidance page.

The Foundation’s team members working on the project welcome suggestions about all aspects of the content (concepts and word choice.) Hopefully this is obvious since we plan do consultations near non stop from now to July. :-)

In order for people who read languages besides English to participate in reviewing the concepts and wording, we need for there to be a stable version that everyone is commenting on at the same time. We plan to make improvements at regular intervals as needed and then provide change logs so translators can make updates. While not a lightweight “iterative process”, we designed the process to provide for feedback loops that should allow for improvements over time.

Phase 2 will have several points in time where it will be important to have a stable version. So going forward, I’m asking for suggestions to be made on the talk page and not made directly to the page.

Thank you to all staff and volunteers who are translating these pages. It is essential work that makes the Wikimedia movement more accessible and inclusive. Warm regards, SPoore (WMF) Senior Strategist, Trust & Safety (talk) 22:01, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

  • There's no need to shout. And as a main point - if all the legal, corporate talk in UCoC is supposed to determine who is getting banned and when - why are you relying on volunteers? Why translation of a legal text cannot be done with the powers of WMF? Remember that the basis in every language is supposed to have the same power as in English. Do you really want to rely on volunteers to commit to that? Lukasz Lukomski (talk) 23:45, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
I translated much or most of the Dutch version but I would not want to be held accountable for any errors. The English text is very ambiguous. I provided a faithful translation, but there are many occasions where the translated version does not make sense or can be interpreted in several ways. There are two reasons for that: The original sometimes does not make sense. The original relies on concepts that do not exist in the target language's culture. My effort is deeply flawed and nobody should use the translation for anything other than as an aid to reading. Under no circumstances should it be enforceable. Vexations (talk) 13:24, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
I think, that's something for most languages. The text is rather vague und ambiguous, such either not enforceable for anything legitimately, or for enforceable for anything illegitimately. Some is just corporate mumbo-jumbo without proper meaning, i.e. bullshit-bingo-stuff, some is plain matter of courses, all reeks of pining the jelly to the wall. If you codify such stuff, the Wikilawyers will run amuck and destroy all sensible cooperation. Nobody with any corporate or business consultant background must be inbvolved in such stuff, they can't get anything right and reasonable. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 14:59, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Hello, I’m replying to several of your posts together because they are related. I’m seeing two related but distinct issues that I want to address.

  • Discrepancies in translation text: Despite the good work of agencies, staff, and volunteers, I’m sure that discrepancies exist in these different language versions. Prior to posting the agency translations, the text was reviewed by Wikimedians and in many instances improved to reflect the Wikimedia context. But errors happen.  And more frequently, people will disagree about the best word choice.
    • Communities are encouraged to help us identify and correct the discrepancies. Local translators often discuss wording on the talk page of translations. For questions about topics that might be relevant to the broader content, I encourage you to use the Translation guidance talk page to share questions and ideas about ways to improve the wording.
    • Discussions about enforcement of text will happen during Phase 2 and will include discussion about how volunteer administrators and functionaries will interpret the UCoC.
  • Cultural differences between Wikimedia projects: The UCoC is not meant to replace existing, effective behavioral standards. Rather, the UCoC will work as a basic standard for all projects, particularly those projects that have few or no existing behavioral standards. Local policies or practices that seem to be in contravention of the UCoC can be examined and resolved taking into account relevant cultural context.

Does it make sense that we are handling these two aspects(Discrepancies vs. cultural difference.) differently? SPoore (WMF) Senior Strategist, Trust & Safety (talk) 14:54, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

@SPoore (WMF), take a look at the policy talk page, please. Iniquity (talk) 10:44, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, Iniquity. I'll take a look. SPoore (WMF) Senior Strategist, Trust & Safety (talk) 14:54, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
That's not how it supposed to work at all. There's a weight of responsibility (and WMF afer producing UCoC is avoiding it) on translation and usually it is borne by specified, trained and qualified professionals. Shifting it onto volunteers and communities to deal with the outcome of less than professional translation is more than disappointing. On the second element - Phase 2 involves discussions over a text that's not yet translated. There's no discussion over viability in terms of use of it only about hypothetical enforcement. Whoever trained those facilitators, didn't do a very good job (besides their ability to use corporate speak) Lukasz Lukomski (talk) 15:16, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
SPoore_(WMF) Does it make sense that we are handling these differently? I'm confused. What does "these" refer to? Vexations (talk) 16:13, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
Two aspects that I addressed in my post. Discrepancies vs. cultural difference. I tweaked the wording to make more clear. SPoore (WMF) Senior Strategist, Trust & Safety (talk) 16:20, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
@SPoore (WMF), hi! You wanted to talk with translators, but no messages from you about 4! four month. Everything is ok? Iniquity (talk) 21:19, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Let's talk translation responsibility, @SPoore (WMF):[edit]

The users above do all mention serious concerns, which I do share, they ask specific questions, which I also do have and they have sound proposals, which I do support. Their focus is not on translating free-created Wikimedia Project content from one language into another. The focus is on transferring a piece of legal code designed under responsibility of the WMF for the US jurisdiction, into pieces of code that have to function alike in other jurisdictions all over the world. This is not an issue that can be solved in Phase 2. Local volunteers all first need a reliable piece of legal code that functions in their jurisdiction, approved by the WMF. Than it must be examined, by experts, whether local policies and/or practices are in contravention of the UCoC. After that is clear, it's up to the volunteers to decide, whether they want to police that piece of WMF legal code within their communities. (All written as imho). Thanks for your attention. JustB EU (talk) 17:00, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

You really want to have forced use of special gender pronouns in the UCoC?[edit]

Moved from Talk:Universal Code of Conduct/Policy text#You really want to have forced use of special gender pronouns in the UCoC?. Iniquity (talk) 12:25, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

This is a major deal and far away from a "minimal" set of rules. This is compelled speech and a very radical requirement. You know in Canada when they proposed this Bill C-16 how big of a controversy this was? Lots of reputable academics came forward to reject such a legislation, here are the arguments why this is not a good idea: [1] I think such a radical requirement should not be part of a "minimal" set of rules. Probably I am a bit too late to complain but I thought this UCoC would be a no brainer with only the bare minimum set of straightforward rules, but now as I finally read through it I realized, it's not. It is much more than that. It is a pathway to compelled speech. --TheRandomIP (talk) 12:06, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

It is only listed as an example. However by doing so it is expressing a biased political point of view. So it is better to just leave it as: treat people with respect. Eg, Deliberately choosing to use a "she" when talking about someone that likes to be termed "he" is a way to show disrespect. But there is no need to include this at that level. An out is provided by "linguistically possible". However the language depends also on who is writing, as well as in what language. In English at least grammatical gender is not a problem, and we are mostly limited to pronouns. Though there may be a few gendered nouns, like "protegée". Some other requests of users in this category may well be trolling and not genuine, that is some people are deliberately trying to cause trouble, and in that case it is another way to show disrespect for others by setting up a minefield of things to be offended about. However with trolls, they can be ignored, quietly shut down, or politely dealt with. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:46, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
"Deliberately choosing to use a "she" when talking about someone that likes to be termed "he" is a way to show disrespect." I agree. But the way it is formulated "People who identify with a certain sexual orientation or gender identity using distinct names or pronouns" makes quite clear that it is not about "he" or "she" but about so called "gender neutral pronouns" where there are dozens of such pronouns like "zie", "they" or whatever people come up with who feel they don't fit on the regular gender spectrum. But there is more: according to some ideologies, there is an infinite amount of genders and thus people may feel the need to develop their special pronouns to fit their personal gender, then they may force others to use this pronoun. This would be consistent with the UCoC. Thus, the UCoC already carries a certain ideology with it. This should not be the case. --TheRandomIP (talk) 09:51, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
TheRandomIP Almost four years after Bill C-16 became law, the sky has not fallen in Canada. Jordan Peterson has not been imprisoned. He has said he would use a transgender person's preferred pronouns if he was asked to do so. His objection appears to be that requiring the use some epicine pronouns (such as 'xe') results in compelled speech. Let's see how that works out here: We have no way to determine another editors gender other than what by they tell us, which is often very little. You don't know what I look look like, so you can't make a guess based on my appearance. I don't write about myself in a gendered language so you can't tell from hpw I write either. Both you and I have give no indication of our gender on our user pages. However, the Wikimedia software allows people to set a preference for gender. Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-personal provides three options: they, she and he. We both have it set to 'they'. The Gender template doesn't work on meta, but you can use the GENDER magic word. For example {{GENDER:Vexations|he|she|they}} will yield 'they'. If I check the preferred pronouns of all 118 participants to this page on meta, I see that 91 have their preference set to 'they', 23 use 'he' and 4 use 'she'. Almost nobody has a username that is clearly gendered, nor does anyone appear to have any other marked that unambiguously indicates their gender. Very few people have a photo that unambiguously shows their gender. The only obvious way that someone could possibly be in violation of the CoC in his/her/their communication with you would be a scenario in which he/she/they used 'he' or 'she', against your wishes; you would correct him/her/them; you would ask to use the pronoun that you have set in your preferences (using the template or magic word Gender or Geschlecht for example); he/she/they would refuse to comply with that request and persist in misgendering you. If he/she/they were to do such a thing, that would be harassment. If I know that Jordan identifies as male but I keep referring to him as Mrs. Peterson for example. That's not what Peterson's objection is about though: Peterson seems to have this hypothetical scenario where some trans-activist SJW wants you to use a pronoun such as 'xe' that he thinks is an expression of a belief (such as 'there are infinite genders') that he doesn't share, and he doesn't want to be compelled to express such a belief by using 'xe'. But that isn't an issue here: as long as you use the preference set by the editor in his/her/their preferences, nobody can reasonably accuse you of harassment. Vexations (talk) 16:25, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
This is, I would say, a bit weak argumentation. First of all, people could object that the wiki system was too limited for them and that they had some different kind of gender apart from male, female or neutral, and still come up with a special unique pronoun they want to force me to use. Who will decide then what's right or wrong? Some Wikimedia bureaucrats living on other side of the pond? This:
some trans-activist SJW wants you to use a pronoun such as 'xe' that he thinks is an expression of a belief (such as 'there are infinite genders') that he doesn't share, and he doesn't want to be compelled to express such a belief by using 'xe'.
is exactly my objection to this UCoC. Such a behavior would be consistent with the CoC, as there is no limitation to what gender pronouns people can force on me.
So what if I don't believe there is an infinite amount of genders? (something that has been debated by e.g. en:Debra W. Soh) There would be no way to express my disagreement as this may fall under the UCoC. This is a lock-in to some specific ideology.
Although I appreciate the goal of being more inclusive, in the end, however, it will be exclusive to those having a different opinion. --TheRandomIP (talk) 17:08, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
TheRandomIP Thanks, I think this clarifies things a bit at least. You appear to be concerned that a hypothetical radical transgender activist could come along to force you to express a belief about gender that you don't hold. This implies that you can be compelled to use a pronoun. You can't. If you refer someone as 'he' or 'she' or 'they', and that person asks you to use 'xe' instead, you can simply stop using the pronoun altogether. A pronoun is a substitute for a noun. Use the noun. It is easy to say "Vexations said" in stead of "he said". There is no compelled speech, merely incorrect descriptors that you are asked to avoid. BTW, if you check how many people actually have a userbox that says they prefer that you use 'xe' you'll find that this particular concern is indeed mostly hypothetical. Vexations (talk) 18:16, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
"If I check the preferred pronouns of all 118 participants to this page on meta, I see that 91 have their preference set to 'they', 23 use 'he' and 4 use 'she'." I am almost certain that "they" is simply the default option set by the software, so if you were trying to argue that 91 people chose "they", that is almost certainly not true. Silver hr (talk) 07:09, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
It is the default. I didn't say they chose 'they', nor was I trying to make that argument. The argument I was making was the following those preferences ought to immunize one against accusations of gender-based harassment. You cannot fault me for using they to refer to you because that is your preference. If you don't like it, you can change it. Vexations (talk) 12:17, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Most people who make the argument that someone could request non-standard genders seems to go down a fallacious line of reasoning. Typically people only ask for he, she or they. I've never come across anyone asking for a different pronoun, though I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's uncommon. So this is really not that big of an "inconvenience". And the point, I presume, is mostly to stop people intentionally using other genders, or using "it", in a way to show contempt for a person's gender identity. I don't think anyone is going to, or should, get sanctioned for slipping up. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:44, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
I think TheRandomIP is right about that part of the UCoC being a problem. The fact that something rarely happened up until now doesn't justify creating the possibility for it to happen. Nowhere in the text does it specifies that "he", "she" and "they" are the only enforced and valid pronouns and that it will always be that way, therefore what he's talking about could totally create issues in the future. Also that section is very Anglocentric, since in a lot of gendered languages using something like "they" is almost, and sometimes completely, impossible. It's either masculine or feminine, unless you would like to try to force the use of asterisks or other symbols and characters that have no equivalent to the spoken language, and are often sanctioned by any recognized authority on the language (ex. the Académie Française for French, Real Academia Española for Spanish and Accademia della Crusca for Italian).--L2212 (talk) 16:29, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
You are exactly right. What some of you might miss that in other languages, there is no established or historical standard for gender neutral pronouns. (e.g. in German, my language), so whatever gender neutral pronoun is used is up to the person to decide. It is also not a nice solution to not use pronouns at all. As I said, there is a built-in ideology in this UCoC and the only way to escape is to restrict myself in the way I use language. And of course it hasn't happened until now because there was no obligation to follow such a request. But when there is, it will change the situation. It is important to realize that the idea of "nonbinary" gender is just an ideology, where some (like Debra W. Soh, and also me) just have a different point of view. People often confuse "nonbinary" with just breaking with traditional gender roles. There is no problem with breaking with traditional gender roles but it doesn't make you a completely new gender. I am a bit hesitant to use different pronouns for everyone who just does some unusual things for their gender, these are not the values I hold, not the culture in which I was born, not the way I conceptualize the world. There should also be respect for different cultures. --TheRandomIP (talk) 17:05, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Since you can't know my gender, how would you address me in German (or French or Spanish)? Vexations (talk) 15:22, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Another thing: It is important to realize that the idea of "nonbinary" gender is just an ideology. In Germany (and Austria), it's not "just an ideology". The third option de:Divers is law. Vexations (talk) 15:35, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Yes, of course, it's an backward ideology that there are only two genders, but those stuck in this past don't see themselves as the hard-core ideologues they are, but proclaim, that the others, that follow law and science, are the evil ideologues. I don't know French or Spanish, but in German I usually use the Binnen-I, as I do since the 80ies of the last century, if no gender-neutral word is at hand. And I talk to others of course with Du, wich is not gendered, or with their names. Yes, Er/Sie or eineR strictly formal don't include divers, but mensch instead of man does, and, to quote Billy Wilder from Some like it hot: Nobody's perfect. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 16:46, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
I think in the end it is just a matter of definition. The stereotype version of male or female does not exist in real life. No one of us follows traditional gender roles all the time. So then, we are just all nonbinary? If you want to define it this way, good luck. Then there will be no feminism, no gender medicine, nothing that can be targeted to the needs of a specific gender.
It it just not a meaningful point of view. It is the "postfeminist" "infinite amount of genders" "everyone can be any gender" ideology that will cause real damage. (like for David Reimer)
I cannot approve such an ideology. A much more reasonable point of view is to abolish the stereotype of male or female gender roles altogether, allowing for greater variance within the binary categories of male and female. --TheRandomIP (talk) 17:54, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
P.S. I am not talking about transgender, who switch from one gender to the other (still only two genders involved by the way). I am talking about those e.g. "I want to have long hair and makeup" males (nothing wrong with that) who think they need to adopt the label "nonbinary" in order to do so. (here is where I disagree) --TheRandomIP (talk) 17:56, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
TheRandomIP If you wouldn't mind, could you please address the question I posted above? Regardless of what you do not want to be compelled to write, what DO you write if you don't know the gender of the person? And then as a followup, assuming that you are capable of addressing people whose gender you don't know, could you explain why it is impossible to use the exact same words for people whose gender you don't want to acknowledge? Vexations (talk) 19:24, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
First of all, it doesn't matter how often this case may occur. It is build-in ideology in this UCoC that you are going to force it on all Wikipedia users around the world - disrespecting their culture or believes. This is the worst part of all. Some Wikimedia elites just force their particular ideology onto everyone else, since everyone contributing then will have to acknowledge this UCoC and therefore indirectly approve this postfeminist "gender is a rainbow" ideology.
But speaking of how often it will occur, you know in some languages like German, there are much more gendered words. Everything is gendered in German. In English you just say "user" but in German it is either "Benutzer" (male) or "Benutzerin" (female), and then the so-called nonbinary people invented a whole new set of vocabulary, a gender neutral "user" then becomes "Benutzx" or whatever. And now lets assume you want to say something like "multiple users said". In German, again, the plural of "Benutzer" is only the masculine form, the "all inclusive" word becomes "Benutzer*in" where the "in" refers to female and the * is a placeholder for any nonbinary gender. Our language gets completely messed up with strange characters and unspeakable words. And this only to follow an irrational, dangerous, unscientific ideology of the "identity politcs" radical left.
Wikipedia needs to stay neutral. Otherwise, it will not be perceived as a trusted source anymore, but as an outpost of the radical left. --TheRandomIP (talk) 23:25, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
And if you wonder how I find out the gender of someone. Well, in german it is pretty obvious, just visit the user page and see if it is called "Benutzer:Vexations" or "Benutzerin:Vexations" (yes, in German they even changed the URL of the user page according to the gender). And female editors usually never miss the opportunity to set the correct setting, so it is quite obvious. --TheRandomIP (talk) 23:45, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
I actually wanted to know what you would do if you do not know the gender. Your reply suggests that you think you always do, and that it's always either male or female, and that you can make that determination based on a preference that has three options, not two. If I understand you correctly, we must assume that everyone is male unless they say they are female. You observe that female editors usually never miss the opportunity to set the correct setting, but apparently men -do- miss it frequently. See the 91/23/4 ratio I mentioned above, which if you're correct means 96.5% (114/4) of editors are male rather than 80.3% (23/4). Do you really believe that? I don't. Vexations (talk) 13:30, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Of course there are ways to avoid pronouns and other gendered words (in German much harder as in English as I said), but this is not the point I wanted to make. I think I made it clear that it is not about that there was no way around it for me personally. But the general attitude of Wikimedia to integrate ideology based expectations into an universal code of conduct that they then force to every wikipedia user around the world. A small selection of users who I don't know where they come from and who they are decide which ideology takes place in Wikipedia, the main source of information for everyone. --TheRandomIP (talk) 15:30, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
For what it's worth: I think the UCoC should be rescinded or rewritten in plain language. I share your apparent dislike of newspeak, postmodernist nonsense and Americentrism. But I'll note that those are not limited to the radical left. The notion that truth is subjective has been widely embraced by broad sections of the political spectrum that no one would describe as left-wing. The urge to make it impossible to talk about ideas that challenge the established order exists on both ends of the political spectrum. I look to Wikimedia projects as a place where we can inhibit a shared reality where everyone can co-exist by treating others with respect, in spite of, or perhaps I should say, in celebration of our differences. All the best, Vexations (talk) 17:12, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
I'd just like to chime in that I agree with what you wrote here, but also point out a crucial thing: respect is subjective. In other words, what respect is can be defined to be pretty much anything. When you combine that with enforcement, that creates a dangerous potential for various extreme ideas to be enforced on a large number of people, simply by defining them as constituting respect. This is why I am wary of enforcing respect and why I think that it should be left in the domain of standard social relations, i.e. if you don't like someone or think that they're not being respectful, simply don't associate with them. Silver hr (talk) 13:46, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Did you really create this thread based off what you "learned" from an alt-right propagandist's video? This is honestly embarrassing, and I hope you've had time to reflect on the criticisms laid out above. The WMF is making the right move here by putting their foot down against bigotry. It is very similar to what Fandom recently did during the recent Wookieepedia controversy regarding deadnaming. Wikimedia projects do not stand for hate, and I suggest you find somewhere else to edit if that's what you're looking for. Internetronic (talk) 00:17, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
We're mostly some anonymous users from the Internet. There's no way you can clearly say that the person on the other end of the screen is not a unicorn. Referring to someone with "he", "she" or "they" is completely reasonable to do in accordance with how they prefer to be referred to and for anything else there is this remark "where linguistically or technically feasible". I would say that using arbitrary non-standard gender pronouns would be linguistically infeasible in most languages. Adamant.pwn (talk) 20:23, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

At the moment I can set gender pronouns in my preferences, but with only three options:her, his and their. When I go back and read the rubric it does tell me that this is for messages, but also that "The software uses this value to address you and to mention you to others using the selected grammatical gender option. Your selection will be publicly visible to others." Aside from the issue of the foundation software forcing editors into just three gender options, which I assume is a UCOC breach; I suspect the "Will be publicly visible to others" bit is going to raise false expectations unless the software changes to make it a lot more visible than present - and as far as I can see it is about as visible as a planning application filed in a flooded basement in a filing cabinet marked "beware of the tiger". Now there are ways round this, people for whom this matters and who don't feel it obvious from their usernames are free to change their signature to include xe etc, but at the moment we risk raising false expectations. There will be people saying "I'd have preferred xe, I went for they as the closest available, and everyone ignores it as if they can't see my choice". This is me on the desktop environment, on the mobile environment it will be as invisible as talkpages. Can we at least change the wording to say "at some point in the future we will change things so that other editors know your preferred pronouns". WereSpielChequers (talk) 13:42, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

We appreciate discussion on the applicability of the policy, and have been encouraged at the ways different communities have approached the considerations of the global policy.

In particular, we noticed the French Wikipedia community engaging with the issue and discussing how to adapt to the basic expectations. The project team encourages communities to continue discussing these topics in the context of the 2021 consultations.

However, as the scope of this page is discussing the Universal Code of Conduct in general, I've collapsed some of the discussion above that have digressed from the applicability of the policy. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 18:08, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Update to Universal Code of Conduct Timeline[edit]

Please note the Board of Trustees has published Foundation:Resolution:Update to Universal Code of Conduct Timeline, extending the timeline for the current phase of the UCoC project ("outlining clear enforcement pathways") to December 2021.

An updated timeline is available at Meta:Universal Code of Conduct#Timeline. The Foundation is seeking input from as many communities as possible. Later this month, we will have specific details about the individual on-wiki consultations starting in April and running into May 2021.. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Whilst three months for a draft review is an improvement over the one month we had for the original Code draft, I still have questions that reflect concerns about the process embodied in the timeline:
  1. Who was responsible for creating the detailed timeline? (Board resolution only mentions deadline, not the breakdown into separate steps.)
  2. Why do we only get one month for initial on-wiki consultation? Is that long enough?
  3. Will there be a consultation for Meta as well as the other wikis? (At (1), meta-wiki was changed to on-wiki.)
  4. Will the three-month draft review be an iterative process, with refined drafts, or do we only get one round of review like with Phase 1, just longer?
Pinging User:Xeno (WMF) (who posted above), User:BChoo (WMF) (who published the diff that I linked), and User:PEarley (WMF) (who liaised with the Community during phase 1 drafting). Pelagic (talk) 21:44, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Pelagic: 1) Detailed project timelines are generally coordinated with other teams in the Foundation to ensure adequate space for other ongoing conversations. 2) This comment period is scheduled for one month, and input that arrives later can still be used in the process. If there are any communities that need help engaging with the core questions, please let me know. 3) Meta participants, as well as participants of any project, can now answer the key questions in the context of individual projects here; 4) the draft review process is still being finalized in the new extended timeline.
Let me know if you have any other questions! I look forward to reading further input at the now-open translingual venue. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 20:15, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Open Letter from Arbcoms to the Board of Trustees[edit]

Since I haven't seen it linked here yet, I'll point out that there is now an Open Letter from Arbcoms to the Board of Trustees regarding the Universal Code of Conduct. It's been linked from the front page of meta since March 26th, and since then it's been signed by the arbcoms of cswiki, dewiki, enwiki, frwiki, ruwiki, and ukwiki. TomDotGov (talk) (hold the election) 19:26, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Comments from the UCoC Project team

The UCoC Project team read the Open Letter from Arbcoms to the Board of Trustees with interest. We share the belief that large projects with mature community governance systems need to have meaningful input about the application and enforcement section of the Universal Code of Conduct. While we are aware that the Board, to whom the letter was addressed, will be considering and responding after the upcoming Functionaries meeting, we wanted to share some of our own thoughts and expectations.

The current plan calls for Maggie Dennis to select the committee members, and she has confirmed that at least one person with experience as an arbitrator, or similar experience dealing with complex and difficult behavior issues, will be added as a member of the drafting committee, and at least one additional person with this experience, or experience as a Steward. However, this is naturally contingent upon qualified volunteers with the required experience applying for the role. We hope the signing members will consider applying!

The Open Letter also indicated a need for the Universal Code of Conduct to remain a living document subject to an amendment process involving meaningful input from communities and individuals. We agree and had built into the plan a review one year after implementation, following which we believe the UCoC should remain subject to periodic reviews. We understand the position that a community-involved amendment process should be formalized.

The project team wants to thank the signing members for taking the time to provide these thoughts. We would appreciate it if Arbitration Committee members who are able to attend the meetings scheduled 15:00 UTC on 10 & 11 April 2021 make time to do so. If you require language or other accommodation, please let Keegan (WMF) (talk · contribs) know.

We are inviting participants on every interested project with an Arbitration Committee, as well as any and all interested Wikimedia projects in any language to hold discussions starting 5 April 2021. Community members are invited to submit summaries of the discussion by 10 May 2021 for the drafting committee's use in designing proposals that will be brought back to the same communities for a comprehensive community review period later this year.

We will shortly be sending out an an announcement seeking input about these discussion topics (some translations pending) during global consultations. We are working to translate these pages into as many languages as possible and would appreciate any assistance. If anyone is interested in helping to organize local discussions and requires assistance, please post here.

The team is committed to a strong collaborative effort with communities as we move forward together with the Universal Code of Conduct and would like to thank all the signing members for their ongoing community building efforts. We look forward to hearing more of your thoughts in the April 2021 consultations and learning more of the Board’s thoughts in their coming response.

On behalf of the project team, Xeno (WMF) (talk) 16:01, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Copy edits needed[edit]

At (and here, I guess) there are at least three minor issues.

1. When I click the "Feedback" link, I am taken to a "View Source" version of the page, not to any sort of feedback or discussion page. Please fix with a redirect or some other solution.

2. The first text in section 3.3, "Content vandalism and abuse of the projects", is not a sentence, but it should be in order to maintain parallel structure and be a grammatical continuation of the second clause in the lead of section 3.

3. The phrase "People who identify with a certain sexual orientation or gender identity using distinct names or pronouns" lacks parallel structure with the sentences around it. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:40, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Anchor link[edit]

@Sänger: Re the recent edit on the anchor link: Text inside the tvar tags aren't translated. The link target goes to #Timeline in all languages, pointing to an also-untranslated anchor inside the Timeline section header. --Yair rand (talk) 06:14, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

OK, danke für den Hinweis. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) Hold the election 06:20, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Universal Code of Conduct Phase 2: m:Talk:Universal Code of Conduct/2021 consultations/Discussion[edit]

The Universal Code of Conduct (UCoC) provides a universal baseline of acceptable behavior for the entire Wikimedia movement and all its projects. The project is currently in Phase 2, outlining clear enforcement pathways. You can read more about the whole project on its project page. There are consultations ongoing at several projects about key discussion topics.

To seek input from participants of projects without individual on-wiki discussions, m:Talk:Universal Code of Conduct/2021 consultations/Discussion is accessible now in several languages and accepting input in any language.

Please let me know if you have any questions. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 16:32, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Early 2021 consultation summary report and individual summaries[edit]

The summary report and 15 individual summaries from the early 2021 consultations are available now:

  1. Arabic
  2. Afrikaans
  3. Bangla + Assamese + Bishnupriya
  4. Wikimedia Commons
  5. Korean
  6. Igbo + Hausa + Twi
  7. Indonesian
  8. Italian
  9. Maithili + Newari + Bhojpuri + Doteli
  10. Malay
  11. Nepali
  12. Polish
  13. Santali
  14. Wikidata
  15. Yoruba

On behalf of the project team, Xeno (WMF) (talk) 12:41, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Join in the Community Call on Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement[edit]

The Universal Code of Conduct project facilitation team will be hosting round-table discussions for Wikimedians to talk together about how to enforce the Universal Code of Conduct on 15 and 29 May 2021 at 15:00 UTC.

The calls will last between 60 and 90 minutes, and will include a 5-10 minute introduction about the purpose of the call, followed by structured discussions using the key enforcement questions. The ideas shared during the calls will be shared with the committee working to draft an enforcement policy. Please sign up ahead of time to join. In addition to these calls, input can still be provided on the key questions at local discussions or on Meta in any language.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the Universal Code of Conduct 2021 consultations so far. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 13:40, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Late-arriving input[edit]

Xeno (WMF) please, the "On-wiki consultations" is from April to May 2021 but appears as "Ongoing". If we discuss these questions, will they be accepted?--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 21:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Felipe da Fonseca: We can still receive input; however, the sooner the better. The drafting committee will start to meet soon. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 21:50, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Xeno (WMF) please may you give me a deadline? May it be until 28.05.2020? --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 15:42, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Felipe da Fonseca yes, keep open until 28 May though, please recommend community members to contribute sooner (as soon as possible), since the drafting committee will be starting to meet and discuss right away. The sooner ideas are presented, the more impact ideas will have on their work. We will still of course consider input that arrives later, and will include with the upcoming round-table notes. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 15:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Xeno (WMF) I think the participation will be very low, but I will let they know. The process of creating interest and integrating the community into Meta will take some time.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 15:50, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
And... how do I set a page to translate? Even if we don't translate the log, the other elements must exist in Portuguese.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 21:39, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
I can mark that page for translation if that’s what you were asking. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 21:50, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Xeno (WMF) actually I am asking how I mark the page for tradition myself, if I can not, so do it for me, please. How can I be part of the "drafting committee"? We probably won't have many comments, but I can do my personal ones next week.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 21:55, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Felipe da Fonseca: Anyone can format a page per Meta:Internationalization guidelines however you require translation admin rights to actually set things for translation. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 23:59, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
I know that the aplication was open until April 19, 2021, but I was not aware, is it possible to apply late?--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 21:59, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm not part of the committee selection, however I do not think they can accept additional applications (unfortunately). However, there are still many opportunities to assist the drafting committee's work during a comprehensive community review later this year. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 23:59, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Xeno (WMF) can you point me to committee selection's page so I can apply to them?--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 14:48, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
The drafting committee is described here: Universal Code of Conduct/Drafting committee - as noted, work is already under way. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 15:14, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
There have been no comments so far other than my own. My comment was: "For Global Issues: In my opinion, no decision of any kind, including decisions to withdraw verification tools, should occur apart from the home communities. This kind of decision creates a huge schism between the home communities and the global community (Meta), which appears to the home communities as imposing a will from above, a will, moreover, completely foreign to the home communities. Not that there cannot be external auditing bodies, there must be, but audits must inevitably work with the home communities. For cases that require secrecy, let them work with those in the home communities who are able to work with this information. On dispute resolutions, they should follow what was said before in general: they should first of all contact the home community and work together with them, never, ever, separately."--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 20:06, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
Xeno (WMF) --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 20:06, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you Felipe da Fonseca for the translation, I have been following the page. Do you have insight into why there has not been additional engagement? I noticed that you advertised it widely and to some established users. Since we are trying to contact local communities and work together yet in some cases there is silence, so I am trying to better understand each community for the success of this model in future. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 13:21, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi Xeno (WMF), I am really interested in helping on this topic, you can see on my user page that this is one of the three focuses of my current work on Wikimedia projects, namely: to strengthen ties between the on the one hand, the Meta-Wiki and the WMF on the other. However, I really don't think this is the right forum for this discussion and I think WMF should open a meshpage with the main communities to discuss this. I am available to help in this model. In any case, I will not miss the opportunity and will try in a few lines to synthesize my opinion and understanding about the subject (whether correct or not, I think this is the general view). Before that, a brief contextualization of what I have been doing....

a) here you will find a proposal from me to open a site only for WMF communities, it was not accepted and rightly so, because the neglect of WMF affairs is so great, that a separate site for such would only make the situation worse (no one would follow the page); b) here, here, here and here you find four attempts of mine to approach, one of them was very successful (there was a lot of debate), one successful (there was some debate) and two completely unsuccessful (no debate).

I will divide my ideas into three focuses, the WMF, the Meta and the Pt.Wiki.

  • WMF
1) As I have been expressing myself in several forums, there is a very serious communication problem. One of the things that could help this communication is: today there is not, or I have not come across it yet (which in itself would be a problem) a page that gives an overview of the WMF's work with all its major projects and links to them;
2) I don't know exactly if this is the WMF's or the Meta community's assignment, but never, never, never should the WMF top-down override a decision of the home community (as was tried for example here, there is a more recent case, but as I was absent at the time, I won't comment). Any invalidation of home community decisions should be done in conjunction with the home communities members;
3) there is a complete misallocation of resources... those who work voluntarily for years managing the don't see the money, either because of difficulty of editors asking for resources for their daily administration tasks, lack of information, or whatever.
  • Metawiki
The Meta wiki forms a separate community from the home communities, a community that is difficult to access because of its particular internal structure and language. Therefore, more extensive use of mesh design is needed;
We see WMF as something distant that does not contribute anything to us, they just suck our blood. Reasons for this are:
1) WMF only approaches us to ask for money on our behalf (see here);
2) or to dictatorially undo our decisions;
3) we don't get any feedback from the WMF, we do all the work ourselves;
4) we don't see the money and those user groups that do, are not trusted by the community or are unknown;
5) we on the are tired of things being done behind the scenes;
Note: realize that this is a long-standing communication gap that will only change with constant, long-term action.
--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 16:15, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for those other examples of the model working well on, this is heartening. I agree this is straying a little off-topic so feel free to re-connect at my talk page, or I will re-connect at yours =) Xeno (WMF) (talk) 16:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Xeno (WMF) this is not how I think we should do it, continuing the conversation on the discussion pages is the worst possible communicative strategy. We on the (that's always my opinion), are tired of things being done behind the scenes. We need a broad Mesh Design discussion, open for all.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 16:24, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Where would be a good venue to discuss? Ptwiki embassy? (historical) w:pt:Wikipédia:Esplanada? FYI, I noticed you posted the EnWiki version on w:en:WP:VPWMF - that's not a well-watched noticeboard, only around 200 viewers and not the place for proposals, which is: w:en:WP:VPR. Xeno (WMF) (talk) 16:28, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
I think the best way to deal with this is to open a discussion in mesh format: see Requests for comment/Closing the gap to and between the base communities. So: WMF open a page on Meta, and the members itself open it in the home communities. If you need help opening a meshpage, I can help on my talk page. --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 16:34, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
I can only speak for my work: which I am using a similar model - so to understand for future, creating a point on ptwiki is by starting a page like
:pt:Wikipédia:Esplanada/geral/Topic (date) and then transclude to the geral page? Or would I first have to invite local users to say "this is a thing we want to discuss"? Xeno (WMF) (talk) 16:59, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Xeno (WMF) My suggestion: If you want to start a discussion on pt, post it at: pt:Wikipédia:Esplanada/geral. If you want to start a meshpage, open a page in mesh design in the Meta and a correponding one in: pt:Wikipédia:Esplanada/geral. We are not sure if this will work out, but it is the way I would go today.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 17:16, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
Xeno (WMF) if you need help, let me know.Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 21:04, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Universal Code of Conduct News – Issue 1[edit]

Universal Code of Conduct News
Issue 1, June 2021Read the full newsletter

Welcome to the first issue of Universal Code of Conduct News! This newsletter will help Wikimedians stay involved with the development of the new code, and will distribute relevant news, research, and upcoming events related to the UCoC.

Please note, this is the first issue of UCoC Newsletter which is delivered to all subscribers and projects as an announcement of the initiative. If you want the future issues delivered to your talk page, village pumps, or any specific pages you find appropriate, you need to subscribe here.

You can help us by translating the newsletter issues in your languages to spread the news and create awareness of the new conduct to keep our beloved community safe for all of us. Please add your name here if you want to be informed of the draft issue to translate beforehand. Your participation is valued and appreciated.

  • Affiliate consultations – Wikimedia affiliates of all sizes and types were invited to participate in the UCoC affiliate consultation throughout March and April 2021. (continue reading)
  • 2021 key consultations – The Wikimedia Foundation held enforcement key questions consultations in April and May 2021 to request input about UCoC enforcement from the broader Wikimedia community. (continue reading)
  • Roundtable discussions – The UCoC facilitation team hosted two 90-minute-long public roundtable discussions in May 2021 to discuss UCoC key enforcement questions. More conversations are scheduled. (continue reading)
  • Phase 2 drafting committee – The drafting committee for the phase 2 of the UCoC started their work on 12 May 2021. Read more about their work. (continue reading)
  • Diff blogs – The UCoC facilitators wrote several blog posts based on interesting findings and insights from each community during local project consultation that took place in the 1st quarter of 2021. (continue reading)