Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Siberian Wikipedia

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Discussion finished, Result is CLOSE. --MF-Warburg(de) 12:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I propose to close this discussion within seven days from now, if there are no objections. --MF-Warburg(de) 10:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I was not alerted about this proposition and surely I have objections; there is no consensus in this discussion. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 13:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Like it or not, but it's the final decision. Nobody should alert you about this message. — Kalan ? 13:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
"if there are no objections" - but many persons in the "against" section definitely have objections. So this is only pesonal opinion of MF-Warburg. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 13:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


Pages will not be imported to Incubator. Reason: "ru-sib" is an invalid language code which is not longer accepted by the Wikimedia Foundation. SPQRobin 01:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Addressing sockpuppetry

Attention!
Внимание!

This vote seems significantly compomised by the ongoing sockpuppetry. It is hereby requested that every user who casts a vote here, authorizes himself at any wiki where he works most, for example like this. After that, please mark your vote here as authorized like this. Wikipedia account should be created before the date of this proposal, that is before November 3, 2006. I suggest all votes not authorised within 7 days, that is by midnight GMT, November 24, 2006, to be stricken out. --Irpen 19:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Данное голосование оказалось существенно затронуто голосованием клонов. Просьба ко всем, кто проголосовал, авторизовать свой голос на той Википедии, с которой Вы пришли, например вот так. После этого, поставьте отметку под своим голосом со ссылкой на авторизацию, например вот так. Ваше имя на национальной Википедии должно было быть создано до начала данного голосования, т.е. до 3 ноября, 2006 года. Предлагается все голоса не авторизованные в течение ближайших 7 дней, т.е. до полуночи по Гринвичу 24 ноября, 2006 г, удалить. --Irpen 20:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


I've semiprotected this page till morning, and filed the RFCU. Events around this page smell bad:( MaxSem 19:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)


Discussion of this solution. --Irpen 20:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

We are completely disagree about the date 24 November, this is too quickly. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 18:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

И мы также против вычеркивания. Сокпапетов чекъюзеры и так чиркают, сторонка защищена от новых пользователей, чо ешшо надоть-то? Шшытайте авторизованных на вособицу, раз ужо так повелося, дык и всьо. And we are also against striking out. Sockpuppets are already striken out by the checkusers, the page is semi-protected, what more? Simply the authorized votes should be counted separatedly. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 03:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Close Siberian wikipedia

Attention!
Внимание!

Do not remove or edit out other user's comments as "incivil". This is stricly prohibited. Because of the scale of such practice on this page all further violations will result in immediate BLOCK. Only remove obvious personal attacks. However, this does not mean that you can use incivil lexics. Thank you for understanding.

Не удаляйте или редактируйте чужие сообщения в связи с «невежливостью» их написавшего. Это строжайше запрещено. Из-за масштаба, с которым подобное практикуется на этой странице, все последующие нарушения будут пресекаться немедленной БЛОКИРОВКОЙ. Разрешается удалять толлько несомненные личные оскорбления и мат, что, однако не означает, что хамить разрешается. Спасибо за понимание.

MaxSem 11:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard of "Siberian" language, but I was indifferent to this Wikipedia at the beginning, even though I thought the entire section was Original Research, using not-really-existant language. However, it has become a home for trolls and keeps bashing everything Russian [1] [2] ("Moskali" in their terms) from nationalist point of view, teaming up with Ukranian nationalists. (Of course, Ukranian, unlike Siberian, is a language in its own right.) There is no respect for Neutral Point of View in this Wikipedia.

I can see the following reasons to close it:

  1. it uses specially crafted or virtually unknown language named "Siberian";
  2. it has no respect for Neutral Point of View and keeps consistent anti-Russian position;
  3. it can never serve to promote and preserve knowledge and create a true encyclopedia because of its strong bias and no real user base;
  4. it demands insertion of its interwikies to other language sections, and, given the above, I consider such interwikies as feeding the trolls;
  5. it is not serious on common topics; for instance, see "translation" of Hamlet with obscene words at the very end.

All in all, I think this section lowers prestige of Wikipedia as a whole. -- Paul Pogonyshev 23:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

And it was without any consensus, simply under Muscovite flashmob and because of impossibility for making decision without english sources about this, and 7 wikipedias still have articles about Siberian. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
It had FULL consensus from the Admin of the wiki! And please stop insulting others with terms like flashmob and such, it only weakens your case if you turn to insults instead of logical arguments. --Kuban kazak 19:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Admin this is not consensus, are you monarchist?)) Your mob is just flash, this is not insult. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 00:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Other comments:

  • "Yaroslav Zolotaryov" is trying to falsify this vote by DELETING the votes to close the "Siberian wikipedia" (e.g. check out his attempts to delete my vote No.60). IF YOU VOTED TO CLOSE THE "SIBERIAN WIKIPEDIA", PLEASE CHECK IF YOUR VOTE IS STILL LISTED AND NOT DELETED BY "YAROSLAV ZOLOTARYOV" --w:ru:Участник:Новый
To be fair, anyone who did not have at least one wikipedia account when the proposer, Paul Pogonyshev voted (that is 23:59, 2 November 2006, folks) is automatically suspect of being a one-purpose account. We will have to agree what date to start off from. I do not know why Irpen chose November 5th - perhaps that is because the history of the page now starts on the 4th? On the other hand, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion and to try to convince other users of your opinion.--Paul Pieniezny 00:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Here is the original edit. It was started in the parent page and later the votes were moved to this subpage. Some voters are registered on Nov 3. --Yms 10:46, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Again demagogy without any proofs. Better tell me, where are your contributions before the voting? The user itself was registered in ruwiki in a hour after voting. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 19:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Note that Zolotaryov defended Danpetre's vote here, even when it was pointed out that Danpetre had no previous contributions on Romanian Wikipedia. Danpetre only registered on November 17th. [3] --Paul Pieniezny 20:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
This not excuses this Novyj, who is definitely one-purpose account created in ruwiki even after voting here. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Why does the "oppose" vote count read "Oppose closing the Siberian wiki (62 votes, 47 signed)" ? There are only 40 to 50 "oppose" votes listed, with some of them not properly signed. Some unsigned votes contain the claims by the 3rd parties attributing these votes to the people they say they know. The "oppose" vote count should be corrected! --ExcaliburW

[edit] Arguments in support of closure

[edit] Presentation of arguments in support of closure

Arguments presented summarily here are repeated and discussed immediately below:

  1. There is no valid source that verify existing of Siberian language (was suggested as "original research") [4]
  2. No single paper book published
  3. Frivolous attitude
  4. Small size
    • Most of content is empty stub [7]
    • Artificial exaggerration of its size. 6 hours ago during my vote I checked it had some 4,500 articles (as reported on their main page). Of which at least 4,300 were year articles, at least from 2300 BC to 2006. There areother sources of purely technical pges, such as other various dates and two-leter internet domains. Smart move, I must say. Right now they already have 6,567 articles! The growth that surpasses english wikipedia. I can nothing but guess they are running bots or something to artificially inflate themselves. Mikkalai 21:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
    • fake articles such as ru-sib:Дания ("Denmark") actually writen 90% in Belarussian language (I guess there are plenty of Belarussians in Siberia sent in gulags by Stalin, no?). Mikkalai 23:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
  5. Aggressive anti-russian position [8] [9]
    Quoting from the below "That's not your russian business what we want to do - just remember it. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 19:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)". And this was uttered by the bureaucrat of the 'pedia.
    There is no agression in this words. Why the russians consider agression when somebody simply wants to be free from them?--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
    The main page of "Siberian" wiki lacks Russian interwiki link. Isn't it funny? I foresee an "argument" that Russian main page also has no link to Siberian wiki, but the English, French or German main pages don't have it either, and this does not prevent Siberian wiki to have interwiki link to them. So it is evidently because of strict anti-Russian position of ru-sib. --Yms 18:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
    That's absolutely stunning and disgusting. Out of 85 linked Wikipedias, the Russian Wikipedia is not included. It was until 2 October, when none other than Yaroslav Zolotaryov removed the link in an edit labeled "minor." Edward Chernenko restored the link minutes later, and Yaroslav Zolotaryov responded by removing it again and protecting the page. On 29 November, Amire80 restored the link. Once again, Yaroslav Zolotaryov quickly removed it via a "minor" edit. This behavior is nothing short of disgraceful, and it accurately reflects the reason behind this Wikipedia's existence. —David Levy 20:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
  6. An opening of "siberian" language section was caused by voting falsification.
    1. Most of votes for creation were anonymous, only with e-mails, their names in Livejournal etc., you can falsificate easily (one person can create many accounts). Most of these people have no contributions in any of Wikimedia projects.
    2. Note supporters deleted anonymous votes
    3. There were two discussions: both on Requests for new languages and Requests for new languages/Non-natural. The proposer, User:Yaroslav Zolotaryov, moved "votes" from first page to second. (Requests for new languages is rather a discussion but not voting at all)
    4. Many votes of wikipedians were deleted by someone (as example "oppose" vote of ru:User:Maximaximax, bureaucrat of Russian Wikipedia). Page Requests for new languages was vandalized sereral times from Philippines IP-s (example), and some votes were deleted from proposal (mainly opposing siberian Wikipedia creation). This vandalism was only partially reverted.
    5. Some people marked themself as native speakers but also voted in Requests for new languages/Non-natural. So argument for creation "there're already 8 native speakers which are ready to contribute new Wikipedia" should be ignored. The language itself was created in 2005 so there're also no "10 millions of native speakers" in real life.
  7. Wikimedia should not provide facilities and resources to emerging languages. (This argument has not been used, but I am placing it here, as it is the only resonable argument agains RU-SIB I can think of. -- Petri Krohn 02:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC))
  8. Wikimedia should not provide facilities for the disreputable wannabe writers to exersize their writing skills in poetry and prose by publishing obscene poems and their own translations(!) of the great authors, such as Shakespeare and Shevchenko, into a languages those authors invent; especially if such "translations" are filled with obscenities (Shakespeare would have been caught dead saying "Motherfucker" as the "translator" implies he would) and poetry includes the death threats addressed to entire ethnicities. --Irpen 03:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  9. Wikimedia should not provide facilities and resources to the web-sites whose main mission is pursuing political agendas, especially when such are controversial and divisive, particularly promoting ethnic hatred and obscenity. If this is allowed, expect Ku-Klux-Klan asking the foundation for its own Wikipedia as well. --Irpen 03:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  10. There is a shady deal between the supporters of closure on Moldovan Wikipedia and the opposers of closure of Siberian Wikipedia. Here is the proof: Парни, Бонопарт повел войска! Надо поддержать румын! --YaroslavZolotaryov 19:24, 17 Грудень 2006 (UTC). Ttranslation: Lads, Bonopart is leading the troops! We ought to support the Romanians!. Feathered Serpent 10:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC), ru:User:Пернатый Змей, en:User:Feathered Serpent
  11. The Siberian Wikipedists are not familiar with their own language. They prefer Russian, see Siberian Wikipedia Main Page — Talk. Feathered Serpent 10:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC), ru:User:Пернатый Змей, en:User:Feathered Serpent

Repetition and discussion of the above presented arguments:

[edit] On argument 1 in support of closure

1). There is no valid source that verify existing of Siberian language (was suggested as "original research") [10]

  • To prove this, www.ethnologue.com, one of the most authoritative sources about world's languages mentions "Siberian" as a language family only, not as a single language [11]. This language family has nothing to do with Russian dialects or derivative languages. --Volkov 13:35, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Mr. Zolotaryov wrote in his blog in May 2005 that there is only one active speaker of this language and a dozen and a half passive speakers. --Yms 20:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
It was writtten about the Standard Siberian, represented in the wiki. But this Standard is based on the living dialects. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 04:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
What we're discussing here is not the living dialects, but your invented non-living language represented in the wiki. --Yms 09:46, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
No, what we are discussing is standard form of those dialects. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:45, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Since there is no standard on those dialects, what we are discussing here is your invented "language". --Yms 21:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
No, Volgota group have developed the standard. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Whatever you call yourself and your invention. --Yms 10:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
< - - - - - reset indent
Even if this standartisation is invention, it is not OR. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes it is, because even the dialect speakers might object to the new rules and insist on staying within the standard Russian language umbrella, as officially recognised by the world. --Kuban kazak 13:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
So you simply are against dialects. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
In what way? I have nothing wrong with dialects, but if the scientific research (RESPECTED scientific research) tells my that Siberian dialects are Russian, then they are as far as I am concerned. I also speak a dialect, yet I have nothing wrong with writing in Russian. Neither should you. --Kuban kazak 09:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
And this is just negative attitude to making language standrard on the base of real people's speech. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
It's OK to make language standard of real people's speech, it's not OK when it's done by one person, artificially, in several months, without conducting a full-scale research by any university, peer reviewing of results, etc. etc. Also, when you normally codify people's speech, they usually don't threaten to sue you as some Siberians do in the LJ ;) --Yms 07:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
It was not done by one person, but discussion groups worked in LJ and later in Volgota. And about sues and even about this voting - this is only nationalistic paranoia, it is eveident that 80% are russians, or from ruwiki, or invited by russians. I have many proofs of total propaganda against siberian wiki in ruwiki, enwiki, and even in ukrwiki and belwiki. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

samir74:Кстати, опыт первого месяца сибирской вольготы показывает, что языку практически любой русскоязычный обучается за месяц - сейчас там уже несколько чел, свободно пишущих без ошибок. [12]

Это показывает насколько сибирский - не русский. Знаете, выучить за месяц белорусский или србско-хорватский хрен получится. Carn ru 17:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Беларуский до степени "пишу со словарем" - вполне получится. Достаточно усвоить грамматические отличия и 300-400 отличающихся слов из наиболее употребимых. После этого в совершенстве язык знать не будешь, но что-то написать на нем сможешь, тем более будешь понимать. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 04:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On argument 2 in support of closure

2). No single paper book published

Actually a Russian paper book issued in 2005 "Abdicating from Russian name" has a full chapter about the Siberian. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 04:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I can't find anything with that title. Could you please provide the book's details (original title, author, publisher). Thanks already. - Ev 17:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
ISBN 5-89747-063-4 [13] The chapter about Siberian: [14] The author is anti-ukrainian chauvinist and wrote a full chapter about the language, considering that emerging of Siberian is similiar to Ukrainian. So even the enemies of the language recognize it's popularity. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 04:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely unbelievable. NOT A SINGLE BOOK has been published! Only a single chapter ABOUT this EMERGING language in some chauvinistic book. This argument ALONE is more that sufficient to closure of that project. --Oscar 6 18:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
But we have all the audience online - value of paper sources is rather low in our times. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 13:00, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On argument 3 in support of closure

3). Frivolous attitude

  • Not serious on common topics [15] [16]
That's lie, based on xenophobic feelings to the language.--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 07:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Nope, that's true, based on non-seriousness on common topics. --Yms 13:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Since you do not understand the language, you can not judge, what is serious and what is not. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
??? Who told you I don't understand the "language"? I do. --Yms 17:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
For sure, not, because this is not russian language. And according to your logic, you can see about every Slavic wikipedia - "it seems to me, that I understand this language, and the article is not serious". For sure, you recognize some words, but you can not undersntand all the text --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 17:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
So tell us the secret thuth - what means "Ебёна мать" in so-called "Siberian language"?
I do not know what you mean by so-called language, but in Siberian this means only exclamation when somebody sees something strange or new. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 18:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
No, you're wrong, it's not simply exclamation, it's "f... mother". Either your own knowledge of this "language" is far from perfect, or you're trying to hide the truth. Both are possible. --Yms 18:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 :))) Are you competent to make such statements? Here, a few lines above, I wrote that I understand it. All you need is to accept this information. If I recognized some words, I would write that "I recognize some words". But no, I understand the "language" as a whole. BTW, yes, I can understand almost every Slavic wikipedia, especially if it's as close to Russian as "Siberian". --Yms 18:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
< - - - - - reset indent
And you have no proofs that you really understand every Slavic language 100%. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 18:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Fortunately I don't need to know all 100% of all Slavic languages to understand "yebyona mat'" ;) BTW, there exists "kebenimat" in Hebrew too, being not so obscene as for a Russian ear, but it still doesn't claim to be serious. --Yms 18:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
And if it has some obscene meaning in Russian and Hebrew, why should it be definitly obscene in Siberian? Words change their meaning from one Slavic language to another, so your refrence to the meaning of Russian word can not verify anything. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 18:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
It should, because it derives from obscene stems which dont't lose their meanings in related dialects, like it or not. It's even not like in Hebrew (I told you, it's not obscene there), because in Hebrew there are no roots like "yeb" and "mat". --Yms 19:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
why do you believe that this stems are definite obscene? why words and phrases can not change their meanings? maybe in ancient times this was something obscene, but now this is simply exclamation in Siberian language without any specific meaning. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 19:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, I see you know what you're talking about, so please give me a brief history of how the "yob" root was developed in Siberian dialects, providing academic sources. --Yms 20:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
This is irrelevant to discussion. As codificator of the language I say to you, that in current language standard this is pure exclamation. Затертая метафора, которая от постоянного употребления в деревенском языке давно потеряла свою экспрессию. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 04:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
< - - - - - reset indent
It's worn out in the regular "Muscovite" country Russian no less than it is in Siberia, but nobody tries to codify it in that way. It means that your codification is either invalid, or intentionally frivolous as a whole (not just this article). --Yms 09:46, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
That is your business, what do you codify in Moscovia, so leave us alone in Siberia to decide what words should we have in the language. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid, I can't fulfil your request. I'd prefer to see somebody professional to codify it if it's ever needed. --Yms 21:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
If you need my diploma, then yes, I am certified linguist. So this is professional, but unofficial, because Russian goverment do not support these researches. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 07:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't care about your papers. Let me judge about anybody's professional level by the things he says in discussions. --Yms 10:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
And that is only your opinion, based on negative attitude to the project. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Haha, the finest argument to close wikipedias - short size of article about it's language)) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 06:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Емопридык ("Ебьона мать, опеть припьорся дык!") v smysle troll, k kazhdoj bochke zatychka. Kak eto budet na sibirskOm? Mikkalai 02:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Personal attacks - that's all that you can do now. Hopefully Tarasevich and his friends will open the second belwiki soon, and freedom in belorussian wikicommunity will increase. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 03:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd just want to say one thing which would help non-Slavs understand this issue (and other related issues as well): all Slavic languages are similar, more so than languages of most other Indo-European language groups. So similar that I, whose native language is Serbian, without ever learning any Russian (save for Russian alphabet) can well understand a simple text (such as a Wikipedia article) in Russian. So similar that even I, and certainly any Russian speaker will understand it even clearer, can see that, in the article on Hamlet in Siberian Wikipedia, Francisco's line Stand: who's there? is "translated" like Stop! Who's there, fucking mother?. Similarly, I looked up all other articles mentioned here and concluded that their presentation is correct. Nikola 02:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
But there are subtle diffrences, You'll notice for example here that some people felt offended by the word "zhid" used by Siberian because it's considered offensive in Russian, but in practily all other Slavic language it's perfectly neutral (Czech Židé, Polish Żydzi, Slovak Židia, Serbian Жидови, Ukrainian Жиди and so on and even some non Slavic ones like Romanian Jidani).
I'd imagine the Siberian language contains quite a few Turkic loan words that other Slavic nations consider obscene precisely for their association with Turks while in Siberia they're just part of normal daily life a no one cares about it.
One thing I especially like is when Croats start talking about subtle differences from Serbian. Unfortunately for you, both ебёна and мать are words with Proto-Indo-European roots, having nothing whatsoever with Turkish languages. Nikola 21:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
See, how many obscenities there are in Russian Wikipedia - here. And they are real in russian language, while in Siberian the meanings were changed. So maybe that's ruwiki which should be closed? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 03:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
All of the obscenities in Russian Wikipedia are justified - the article on хуй (could be translated in English as "dick") talks about the term, as does the article on the music group which uses the word in its name, or one on the phrase which includes it. The article on Hamlet in Siberian Wikipedia includes an insultive phrase without any justification. Nikola 21:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
So you may organize discussion about this article in Siberian wikipedia, if you do not like it, but this is not cause to closure. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On argument 4 in support of closure

4). Small size

  • Most of content is empty stub [17]
  • Artificial exaggerration of its size. 6 hours ago during my vote I checked it had some 4,500 articles (as reported on their main page). Of which at least 4,300 were year articles, at least from 2300 BC to 2006. Smart move, I must say. Right now they already have 6,567 articles! The growth that surpasses english wikipedia. I can nothing but guess they are running bots or something to artificially inflate themselves. Mikkalai 21:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Pure accusation to a new wiki without any proofs--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 07:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Are you saying that 4,300 articles are not year articles? (actually, it is already over 5,466 of empty articles, because I see ru-sib:3000 до н. п. and ru-sib:2100 and plus 366 days ru-sib:9 ревуна.). And I have no desire to fish out what other empty pages you dumped there. Mikkalai 01:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I am saying that many year articles are not empty - 1419, 2000, 2010, 14, 90, etc, etc. Many day articles are not empty too. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 03:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
How much "many" is in precents? Carn ru 18:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Go and count yourself. This is not horse race, I do not count sizes, I only know that we are filling the years constantly. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 04:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to interwiki bots I've struck yet another motler lode of near-empty articles: over 600 internet domain suffixes (.ru, .bg, etc.)so, of (as of now) 6,690 articles you have 6,690 - 5,500 - (26*26=> 676) - (pages for centuries) - (pages for decades). So it is, like, 300-400 pages left, with about 100 with some decent text. Mikkalai 00:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
only about 200 domains, 5100 years, pages for decades are without internal links and they are not counted by counter. 40 centuries, many years are filled. So no more them 5300 stubs, and 1400 articles not about years, check the alphabetical list of articles in the wiki. This is pessimistic count, but about 300 years are filled with some information, so optimistic count of non-stub articles is 1700, all done in 3 months. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 07:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
  • fake articles such as ru-sib:Дания ("Denmark") actually writen 90% in Belarussian language (I guess there are plenty of Belarussians in Siberia sent in gulags by Stalin, no?). Mikkalai 23:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Only one such article in the whole sibwiki, simply the translation was not finished. So this ending -s is totally false in the "argument" above. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 01:02, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, sure. But how come each time I look into zolotaryovopedia, I find something fishy? Probably my zolotaryovophobia... Mikkalai 20:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Probably. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On argument 5 in support of closure

5). Aggressive anti-russian position [18] [19]

This is lie, based on misunderstanding of this articles. You do not know the language, how can you judge about it? (Yaroslav Zolotaryov)
It is a position that only you and your friends can judge anything about Siberian language. I know russian and can understand it's dialects. (Carn_ru)
haha, where have you studied Russian dialectology? The russian dailects are studied by scientists for centuries, and still not known well. As to Siberian, your "translation" in the bottom shows, that you understand about 50% You think too much of yourself. Your self-confidence cannot be proved by your knowledge. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Nothing agressive. Note, that "Московиты" and russians is not the same, thus nothing anti-russian --A1 17:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually this way of argumentation can be used to prove anything: some word arbitrarily is claimed to be "abusive", and when for example we will not use it, they will claim some other word as abusive for sure. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Quoting from the below "That's not your russian business what we want to do - just remember it. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 19:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)". And this was uttered by the bureaucrat of the 'pedia.
There is no agression in this words. Why the russians consider agression when somebody simply wants to be free from them?--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On argument 6 in support of closure

6). An opening of "siberian" language section was caused by voting falsification.

  1. Most of votes for creation were anonymous, only with e-mails, their names in Livejournal etc., you can falsificate easily (one person can create many accounts). Most of these people have no contributions in any of Wikimedia projects.
  2. Note supporters deleted anonymous votes
  3. There were two discussions: both on Requests for new languages and Requests for new languages/Non-natural. The proposer, User:Yaroslav Zolotaryov, moved "votes" from first page to second. (Requests for new languages is rather a discussion but not voting at all)
  4. Many votes of wikipedians were deleted by someone (as example "oppose" vote of ru:User:Maximaximax, bureaucrat of Russian Wikipedia). Page Requests for new languages was vandalized sereral times from Philippines IP-s (example), and some votes were deleted from proposal (mainly opposing siberian Wikipedia creation). This vandalism was only partially reverted.
    And this vote of Maximax is still in the vote page--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
  5. Some people marked themself as native speakers but also voted in Requests for new languages/Non-natural. So argument for creation "there're already 8 native speakers which are ready to contribute new Wikipedia" should be ignored. The language itself was created in 2005 so there're also no "10 millions of native speakers" in real life.
    And that is their business, what they say about themselves. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 07:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On arguments 7, 8 & 9 in support of closure

7). Wikimedia should not provide facilities and resources to emerging languages. (This argument has not been used, but I am placing it here, as it is the only resonable argument agains RU-SIB I can think of. -- Petri Krohn 02:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC))

8). Wikimedia should not provide facilities for the disreputable wannabe writers to exersize their writing skills in poetry and prose by publishing obscene poems and their own translations(!) of the great authors, such as Shakespeare and Shevchenko, into a languages those authors invent; especially if such "translations" are filled with obscenities (Shakespeare would have been caught dead saying "Motherfucker" as the "translator" implies he would) and poetry includes the death threats addressed to entire ethnicities. --Irpen 03:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

9). Wikimedia should not provide facilities and resources to the web-sites whose main mission is pursuing political agendas, especially when such are controversial and divisive, particularly promoting ethnic hatred and obscenity. If this is allowed, expect Ku-Klux-Klan asking the foundation for its own Wikipedia as well. --Irpen 03:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Nothing ethnic hatred and obscenity. "Москаль" or "Московит" isn't ethnic - it is more social category. More of than, you could find these words even in Taras Shevchenko's poetry quite a lot, but I hope nobody will ask for closing ukrainian wiki because of Shevchenko's verses! --A1 17:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Well nobody closes en-wiki for some of the swear words that Hollywood actors use. However on talk pages of en-wiki, one usually gets banned when starting to drive hate by employing terms like Moscals or Hohols or Niggers. --Kuban kazak 09:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
But Moscal is not equal to "russian", no dictionary says that. It is equal to Russian only in paranoic minds of nationalistic Russians, driven from ruwiki "to stop separatists". --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Big Ukrainian article explaining that Moscal is not a national abuse, but rather a political cliche: [20] (Russian language). --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
The term Moscal obviously derives from the word Moscow, doesn't it? It is ethnic by its birth.
The word is obviously used as a derogatory term, even by the author of the named article, isn't it? And it has been commonly used as derogatory for quite a long time, right? And yes it is percepted as derogatory by Russians, in Moscow and in Siberia.
Regarding the article above, it is only very telling how somebody in Ukraine is easily using the ethnic term to call all negative features a person may have. --BeautifulFlying 02:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
You are not a linguist, (until of course you can provide an authentic dimploma and a statute from any respectable university/academy), hence that is mearely and authentic claim that IMO has no value. As proven below, the term has been excluded from the volcabulary of Belarusian for example. Also what may be a suitable term in dialect, is unsuitable when talking to people. Personally I would never call an American person a Yankee. One thing is when Russians among themselves use the terms Pendos, Yankistan etc. Another thing is when Americans use the term Yankee amongst themselves. But I doubt an American will be happy if he is reffered to as a Yankee. So you can call us Moscals on your Volgota all you like, but outside, in international zones, like Meta, I would expect some respect and kindness. --Kuban kazak 13:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
For sure, I am a linguist and have a diploma of Tomsk Univercity. Your constant lie make me constantly laugh, especcially when almost nobidy except russians believe in it. Moscal is more social term, and you have no proofs to identify Moscals from the verses with russians. Tales, slogans, and lie - these are speeches of "Kuban kazak". --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 17:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
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In that case please scan in proof of both, that you are a linguist with appropriate staute (Dotsent, Kandidat whatever) and your diploma (btw I do suppose that you will claim it is a red-covered one, so an image of the cover as well). --Kuban kazak 19:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok)))))) The diploma is not here now, but it will be soon)) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The diploma: volgota.com/%E4%E8%EF%EB%EE%EC.bmp --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 02:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Wait a minute... You are not a linguist, you are a philologist. A philologist in the Russian education system, and I believe in any system, is not quite equal to what a linguist is. --BeautifulFlying 02:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
And the certificate of being a recognised linguist... with appropriate statute.--Kuban kazak 14:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean by recognized? This is discutable ground. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
You need to prove your claims before we believe you. Kazak 20:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
It is obvious from this duscussion, that you will not believe me in any case--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 20:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On arguments 10 & 11 in support of closure

10). There is a shady deal between the supporters of closure on Moldovan Wikipedia and the opposers of closure of Siberian Wikipedia. Here is the proof: Парни, Бонопарт повел войска! Надо поддержать румын! --YaroslavZolotaryov 19:24, 17 Грудень 2006 (UTC). Ttranslation: Lads, Bonopart is leading the troops! We ought to support the Romanians!. Feathered Serpent 10:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC), ru:User:Пернатый Змей, en:User:Feathered Serpent

Even if there is such a deal, it does not work - only 4-5 Romanians vote here, and only 3-4 Siberians there. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

11). The Siberian Wikipedists are not familiar with their own language. They prefer Russian, see Siberian Wikipedia Main Page — Talk. Feathered Serpent 10:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC), ru:User:Пернатый Змей, en:User:Feathered Serpent

We use russian only in conversations, in order than more people understand us. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oppose to closure arguments

[edit] Presentation of arguments in opposition to closure

Arguments presented summarily here are repeated and discussed immediately below:

  1. Siberian wikipedia has no articles about politics, and Russians are mentioned 2-3 times in it.
  2. Siberian language have more than 50 articles in online and offline media about it.
  3. There is offline newspaper in Tomsk in siberian language.
  4. Enemies of Sibwiki are nationalists and xenophobs.
  5. Sibwiki has more then 70 users and about 10 active editors from them.
  6. Sibwiki has 2000 articles, which are not stubs, and grows rapidly.
  7. Dictionary and grammar exist outside wikipedia in volgota.com and ukrainian sites.
  8. The Siberian language is not an artificial language, but an (attempted) codification of existing dialects.
  9. Wikipedia is not the Russian Academy of Sciences and Jimbo Wales is not Lomonosov; Wikipedia has no authority over the Russian language or its dialects or orthography.
  10. The right of nations to self-determination is a fundamental human right and the basis of Lenin's national policy.
  11. Proposal is a result of mob action by Russian wikipedians and was possibly done in bad faith. The deletion of interwiki links to RU-SIB [21] is vandalism and indication of bad faith.
  12. Creation and use of a "Siberian" written language is a deplorable (= very bad) idea, but so was the creation and use of the Ukrainian language.
  13. POV discussions on the wiki content are not cause to close wikipedias--Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
  14. Because about 3/4 of votes for closure are Russians or have came from ruwiki, the results of the voting show nothing but ethnical solidarity of the Russians. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 01:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
  15. If some wikipedia (f.e. Siberian one) will be closed because of political motivated flashmobes of some nation which does not like it, this will be precedent for more nationalistic flashmobes for close wikipedias. We know that there are many nations which have conflicts with each other. If it will be such precedent, more and more flashmobes will be organised to close more and more wikies - because of political and national problems, but not because of real necessity or innecessity of some wiki. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 19:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
  16. Many groups of starozhils (native speakers) are officially recognized in Russia (accroding to http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/knigi/alfavit/alfavit_nacional.html - lenski starozhily, yakutyany, kamenshiki (Altai group) are officially recoginized and recommended for apparent counting from Muscovite Russians. Current revival of Siberian self-perception also brings into existence the word "sibircy" for a Siberian non-Muscovite Russian. While the last word is not recognized officially, it is used widely together with words "Siberian Nation" - this nation has it's own flag, territory, why can not it have a language too? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Repetition and discussion of the above presented arguments:

[edit] On argument 1 in opposition to closure

1). Siberian wikipedia has no articles about politics, and Russians are mentioned 2-3 times in it.

this says that Siberia has no capital and that it is fragmented. See also en:Yakutsk, w:en:Novosibirsk, w:en:Krasnoyarsk and else.
So what's wrong with this and where is the russophobia?)))))))) Siberia really has no capital. That's paranoia from your side. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 12:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Siberian Federal District has no administrative center, or, maybe, Siberia is a independent commonwealth to have it's own capital? (Carn_ru)
Siberia is different notion from Siberian Federal District. All the same 1) this is POV discussion irrelevant to the voting 2) this is not political article, but you invent politics in it. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 12:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
It is true that there is no united Siberia and that there is no capital of Siberia in general. Though there are several capital cities in Siberia. The criticism is irrelevant, I believe. ACrush ?!/© 19:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
They are capitals of administrative regions (oblasts) but not of the whole Siberia. All the same, the POV discussion is irrelevant. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On argument 2 in opposition to closure

2). Siberian language have more than 50 articles in online and offline media about it.

Proof, especially for offline. Guinness man 22:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
http://www.reakcia.ru/article/?1289 - example of offline article. But this is not "OR or not OR" discussion. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 00:20, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
they call your group «сибирские националисты», you are really Siberian nationalist? Carn ru 12:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
That's one of the names of oblastniks. But do you want to delete the whole wikipedia because some russian newspaper called me nationalists? This is only political repressions with invented accusations. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 12:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The term 'Siberian nationalists' seems to be pretty welcome in the ru-sib WIkipedia: Category:Сибирски нацыоналисты --BeautifulFlying 00:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
And, existence of 50 articles in the media about the language project doesn't entitle the project to have it's own Wikipedia. --BeautifulFlying 00:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On argument 3 in opposition to closure

3). There is offline newspaper in Tomsk in siberian language.

Proof please. --ru:Участник:Boleslav1.
Maket volgota.com/maket.pdf --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 00:20, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Trial issue with a planned 1000 copies. --ru:Участник:Boleslav1.
Just FYI, the newspaper designed and prepared by Zolotaryov's team as may be seen here. Any other? 83.237.231.25 09:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On argument 4 in opposition to closure

4). Enemies of Sibwiki are nationalists and xenophobs.

Sibwiki core users may be considered nationalists as well while discussing the "Siberian republic" whose army should liberate Siberia and occupy lower Volga regions to strip Moscow of access to oil resources. Liberté, égalité, fraternité, and please don't forget the NPOV. 83.237.231.25 09:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC) -- not logged in ACrush ?!/©
But we do not do this in Siberian Wikipedia, and you want to organise political persecutions just because we are Siberian Oblastniks. There are no articles in sibwikipedia even about oblastnichestvo. But you, Putin slaves, want to close the wiki only because it is written in our Language --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Wait a minute. Sure you will have articles about Oblastnichestvo some day soon. Hopefully, a neutral and fact/reference-reliant one. What I wrote above is only a simple fact which may be helpful in consideration of this argument from Sibwiki founder. ACrush ?!/© 10:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
But this is simply political accusation. Of course, I have certain political position and you have. But I do not write from my political position in Wikipedia, but you do, inventing arguments from nothing only because existence of Siberian Wikipedia is against your political position. All this votes in support are simply vote stacking from Russian Wikipedia, while in oppose part we have persons from very many nations - tatars, belorussians, ukrainians, turks, romanians. Our part is true international, free, having full diversity. But your part is simply Russians invited from Ruwiki under nationalistic slogans. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Whoa you're tough. I'm not a member of any political parties, I have no political stance on the subject of this discussion. I only ask for information and provide what I found. What's wrong with that? Please give us more information. That's all!ACrush ?!/© 10:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The wrong is that your information is political accusation with no relation to Wikipedia. You reveal the real goals of your friends, who search for Russophobia in wikipedia, where there is no articles about Russians or Russia, and nothing about Russian history and politics. You consider only using of real dialect as agression against you - and this is just xenophobia at play. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
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Actually my information was only the symmetrical response to your claim that the critics, who you dub "enemies", are all xenophobs and nationalists. See above. I would consider case closed if both sides refrained from mutual accusations and would consider the facts: whether the language exists, whether it is constructed or not, whether there is an opportunity that the SibWiki may evolve normally in cooperation and not confrontation with the compatriots. Please provide the full bibliographical records of the dictionaries you used in the creation (Ok, say generalization or smth) of the language - what the dictionaries call it: dialect or language; - what the textbooks say: whether the dialect/language is more or less uniform throughout Siberia, etc. ACrush ?!/© 19:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
1) language exists just because dictionary, grammar and wikipedia exists 2) it is irrelevant is it constructed or not 2) SibWiki have very good cooperation with all wikipedias except russian 3) the list of my sources will be about 500 numbers - to be short, it was dialect until the standardised form was developed by Volgota group. All the same, this is irrelevant - even if the language would be totally constructed, it have right to have it's own wikipedia. All this noise about it signifies only one thing - the language is really popular and it has many enemies and friends. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that one online dictionary, one tentative grammar and a wikipedia may not be enough to make this a language capable of maintaining a serious, neutral encyclopedia. There must be enough native speakers born, research conducted, books and dictionaries published, etc. The part you numbered 1) is not serious as long as there is no other support for the language known but Volgota.
Please remember that wikipedia is not a primary source of information. Actually, most of your opponents seem to oppose the attitude, but not the language. You might be interested in counting the times you called newcomers and ru-wiki users in general trolls, xenophobs and liars without actually providing proof of their deceit or good-faith error which should be assumed in the first place.ACrush ?!/© 16:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
There are no wikipedia policy, which defines how many books should be published to open wikipedia. We have very many native speakers now - the siberian wiki is the biggest and the most active from all the newly created wikies. As to my invented "insluts" - this is only accusation, Actually this is just you who do personal attack now - I am only defending my position, but you say that my defending is insult against you. All the proofs of errors of those, who agressively want to close the sibwiki, were already given. About conduct of the attackers you can learn from one of the next lines, where Mikkalai have said about my words "blatant lie", when it is very easy to check that sibwiki has not 5500 empty articles --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On arguments 5 & 6 in opposition to closure

5). Sibwiki has about 80 users and about 10 active editors from them.

6). Sibwiki has 2500 articles, which are not stubs, and grows rapidly

This one also needs proof. I see nothing but a bunch of stubs right now. Guinness man 22:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Just open your eyes. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 00:20, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Blatant lie. There are at least 5,500 empty articles about years/days, like, ru-sib:1907and ru-sib:9 ревуна. ешшо тут маловато написано дык. Mikkalai 01:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
And many of them are filled. All the same, the 1400 others are definitely not yeas and days - this is the biggest wiki from the newly created ones. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 03:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually there are about 900 articles, and less than 200 of them have more than 3 sentences. Mikkalai 02:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
That's normal for a new wiki, which has only one month. Later we will make them bigger. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 03:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
After 3 weeks this things are improved. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On argument 7 in opposition to closure

7). Dictionary and grammar exist outside wikipedia in volgota.com and ukrainian sites

Did any exist elsewhere before volgota? 83.237.231.25 09:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)-- not logged in ACrush ?!/©
Yes, dialect vocabularies, from which we collected all words to the one language. Grammar is 100% equal to typical grammar of Northern Russian Dialects --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe you have some dictionaries and/or textbooks at hand. Please provide the full bibliographical references for consideration. This is not a provocation - I need to know before I make my decision like others. ACrush ?!/© 10:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Do you mean siberian dialect dictionaries? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, these too. Any books you used to create the language / dialect, any printed books describing the language. Any proof that ru-sib: is not a primary source of information in this language which wikipedias cannot be.ACrush ?!/© 16:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
1. The language is not created, this is standardisation of the living dialects. 1. I thank a little and decided not to do this, because this is irrelevant. All the bibliography abotu northern russian dialects you can take from the Google. It is easy verifiable that 1) Northern Russian Dialects, especially of 19 century, are very different from so called "Russian standard", which according to my POV is not Russian language at all, but modernized Chyrch Slavonic; 2) grammar and lexics of language used in sibwiki, is identical to grammar and lexics, described by real scientists for Northern Russian Dialects 3) xenophobic feelings for real dialects are known in Russian culture from 18 century, and even in that times they considered them obscenity and insult. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
It is NOT a standardisation of living dialects. That is what is happening at projects like Westvlams or Westvloams. YOU are taking slang expressions and deviant vocabulary from villages all over Siberia (which all have dialects which are basically 99.5% identical to Standard Russian) and combining that into a language using Ukrainian and Belarusian to fill up the gaps. Note that I use "You" and you are using the passive voice. Passive voice is always used in English to hide who is performing the action. But it is clear from the sheer speed with which you are creating articles since the project was proposed for deletion, that YOU (and the bots) are the performer. That is why it is WP:OR and WP:OWN. The POV is only there to get the usual Russophobic crowd from Ukraine, Belarus and Romania. --Paul Pieniezny 17:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
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Your messages is always a great source of joy and laugh for me)))))))))) I want to sleep now and will answer later))))) About bots who work at the wiki besides me - this is very strong))) Eto silno))))))) Ja urzhalsja prosto)))))) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 18:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
To be short: 1. Full nonsense about russian dialectology. 2. Full nonsence about sibwiki, which is full of users now, btw just this voting attract new people to the wiki. 3. And this crowd is victorious, you will never have 2/3 votes here, which you need for closing the wiki. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 05:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
2/3, no, that's general rules, but exceptions can apply. What would happedn if Padonki manage to get a majority, will the admin of wiki still tolerate them? Victorius crowd...So were Napoleon's soldiers prior to 1812. --Kuban kazak 18:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
If Padonki manage this, it will be Padonki wikipedia. You are really against democracy, and all you cries for political correctnes are in vain, just because you yourself are not politically correct to urkainians, belorussians and siberians. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 07:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Where am I not politically correct to Ukrainians, Belarusians or Siberians? Have you ever heard me use the term Hohol, or bydlo wrt to my opponets. Have I ever called a person from the Caucasus a Churka? Have I ever called a black person a Nigger or a Jew Zhid? NO. BTW for your information, my wife happens to be from Western Ukraine, and my children happen to be half-Ukrainian. Also if I was biased towards Ukrainians, would Ukrainian wikipedians in en wiki NOT praise for hard work to the hundreds of Ukrainian-related articles that I created and edited. If you want me to get some Ukrainians or Belarusians or Armenians or Azerbaijanis or Georgians or hundreds of other wiki people to stand for me that can be arranged. And at the same time probably adding more and more votes to the closure support.... See Slava, unlike you I can defend criticisment and prove people wrong, which you obviousely can't. --Kuban kazak 14:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
For example, speaking about "Svidomy Ukrainian conspiracy" here. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 03:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Well if that is called not being politcially correct, then do read some of your comments, Muscovite flashmob is thus equally unpolitically correct, as is Putin Slaves, or Imperialist Chauvinists. Really don't even try it. Accusing your accusers will not work here. You will make a lot of noise, but prove - nothing. --Kuban kazak 08:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Just who have a lot of noise, but prove - nothing, this is those, who want to close a living wiki, and have in proofs only links to 3-5 articles, meaning of which they do not understand, and long speeches, that's all that you have. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
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I'll just quote my passage and annotate it:
Scientific letters to Nature or request grants from different Scientific circles when carrying out the research and development of the language on Volgota (1), that you did first come to Russians and asked us in good faith support instead of nationalist circles in Ukraine and Belarus (2), that you did not have the blog of Samir74 and never wrote any rubbish in there (like exporting oil to bypass Moscow) (3). That someone actually oversaw the research of Volgota and judged it as satisfactory...(4). Or criticised you to which you responded(5). That you were able to go to every single place in Siberia and sample the dialect when researching(6). That your research group consisted of intellectual people with higher education, with a respectable scientific past(7). That you served your citizen's duty to the Motherland for two years, or have appropriate exemption (e.g. Voennaya Kafedra)(8). That you have no hostility towards Russia or Russians (including those in Moscow) whatsoever(9), and thus if a war breaks out with Siberia and Moscow, you will thus not raise weapon on those you are not hostile to and will fight to make sure that Russian territorial integrity is restored(10). There you go, 10 points of which only two are just thrown in for the humour. of it. --Kuban kazak 13:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Absolute rubbish irrelevant to the voting, but relevant to your nationalistic paranoia. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 17:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Points 1,4,5,6 and 7 are w.r.t. people making their minds up on what to vote, the remaining points 4 and 9 are particular to the ru-wiki voters, which constitute the larges majority, and 8 and 10 I threw in for the laugh of it, quite the opposite of paranoia btw, but nonetheless interesting. --Kuban kazak 19:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
So you yourself recognize, that this is only Russian national trollfest, where ruwiki voters constitutes majority. But I do not care what Russians think about me, because I am not a Russian. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 09:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
So you live in Russia, hold Russian citizenship but not Russian? So what are you? What nationality does your birth certificate say? And the remaining 5 points are still to be answered.--Kuban kazak 14:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I will not answer all of them at all, because you are not a KGB investigator, and I am not under your investigation --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On argument 8 in opposition to closure

8). The Siberian language is not an artificial language, but an (attempted) codification of existing dialects.

I don't even want to call this language 'Siberian' as it is not. And, this language IS artificial. If the attempt intended to codify any individual naturally exisitng dialect, and without any political agenda, I would totally support creation of a Wikipdeia for such a project. However, Zolotaryov's language is a mixture of dialectisms and his own inventions, and therefore it is an artificial language. --BeautifulFlying 01:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On argument 9 in opposition to closure

9). Wikipedia is not the Russian Academy of Sciences and Jimbo Wales is not Lomonosov; Wikipedia has no authority over the Russian language or its dialects or orthography.

For that matter Wikipedia is not Volgota.com and neither is Yarosalv Zolotoryov Lomonosov. --Kuban kazak 23:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
First and foremost Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Therefore, using it for POV-pushing an idea like the sib wiki does is unacceptable. -- Grafikm fr 00:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Please do not confuse Wikipedia with Wikimedia. Yes, each Wikipedia needs to be NPOV, but Wikimedia as a whole is highly POV. Each individual Wikipedia pushes the importance of the particular language. Together the Wikipedias push a POV on the importance of literacy. The most POV of all is the English language Wikipedia, which pushes for Anglo-Saxon world domination. -- Petri Krohn 02:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Except in en-wiki there will be people who will challenge articles such as en:International English. The admin in en-wiki is neutral and thoughtful about whether offensive language can be used or not. I doubt that Zolotoryov would escape blockage if he used the term Moscal in en-wiki! As for Literacy, Sib wiki lacks any, except for that silly little poem moscalska Svoloch. --Kuban kazak 18:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On argument 10 in opposition to closure

10). The right of nations to self-determination is a fundamental human right and the basis of Lenin's national policy.

Sure thing, but Wikipedia is not a propaganda instrument to advocate independence, because it is contrary to WP:NPOV among others. -- Grafikm fr 00:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Self-determination is not about