Grants talk:PEG/Violetova/Wikipedian in Residence

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GAC members who support this request[edit]

  1. --DerekvG (talk) 17:28, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GAC members who support this request with adjustments[edit]

GAC members who oppose this request[edit]

GAC members who abstain from voting/comment[edit]

  1. I refrain from evaluating this grant request as a GAC member because of my involvement in the partnership with the State Archives of the Republic of Macedonia as President of Shared Knowledge.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:48, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

GAC comments[edit]

Comments MADe[edit]

Hey @Violetova: I checked the grant. Budget and planning are ok for me. Concerning the scope, is it correct that your main activity will be to upload images that the archive makes available? Honestly, it sounds a bit light to me. Is is not possible to reach out to the community (eg. by inviting Wikipedians to a tour in the archives)? The uploading itself can be done by Commonist.

Please also include "meausures of success", especially for the new articles you plan to write. MADe (talk) 17:45, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi MADe, your suggestion to have a Wikipedians to a tour in the Archives is a very good idea. Much more, we could have an edith-a-thon in the Archives. To answer your question: one of my strategy goals is to educate new editors from a target group - GLAM employees. I have already arranged to hold seminars on how to edit Wikipedia for DARM stuff. Regards, Violetova (talk) 22:07, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes.. but why does it need regular employment for 6 months? I mean - both uploading of 500 pictures and organizing several small workshops for employees of Archive does not legitimize IMHO to hire an employee for 6 months. 6 months x 20 days a month = 120 working days. 500/120 = around 4,2 uploads per day. Even if it needs scanning and post-processing - it is still very little work per day. Polimerek (talk) 13:06, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Polimerek, this will be my first WiR appointment, that is why I am not aware of the problems which could occur, and because of that, I went with lower measure of success. But, I intend to devote myself truly, and be more productive then the measures of success. After my first month, I will know how many work could be done in a month. If I could upload 500 pictures in a month, for 6 months we will have three thousand pictures and documents uploaded. Regards, Violetova (talk) 15:51, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Violetova:, I think you need to rework your proposal.
Firstly, expand your assignment by increasing the number of uploads you plan, including "Wikipedian tours" and edit-a-thons, clarify the number of new articles you plan to write.
Secondly, please talk to @Инокентиј:. He has worked on a similar assignment for a while now. Discuss with him how your presence can help him with his volunteering work (I read that he is waiting for translation of documents - why don't you include this in the budget??). This is important, because nobody here wants to pay somebody to take over an activity already done by a volunteer. MADe (talk) 19:45, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi MADe, thank you for your comments. In the Archives there is no WiR after 15 of September 2015. The Archives is the Institution where one cannot just go in and get documents, or translations as one wants to. The director (today I spoke with the director of the Archives) said that the employees are not allowed to collaborate, to take out or send materials to the person who is with no contract. So, I am not taking over an activity already done by an anyone. Regards, Violetova (talk) 21:57, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Comment @MADe:@KHarold (WMF): As a Chief Programme Manager of Shared Knowledge, I feel that I should testify to the situation in the Archives. Our existing Wikipedian-in-residence there, @Инокентиј: is officially engaged there, and his work there has not ceased, since there is no ending date mentioned in the agreement (Memorandum, both of its pages provided below) we have signed for him together with the Archives. There has been no termination and there are clearly no dates mentioned other than the signing date. Our WiR therefore still has all the possible access to archive material, as agreed in this document, engaged on volunteer basis as he is. Should this matter require any further explanation, may I suggest talking directly to the Archives, rather than risk misrepresentation of facts. --B. Jankuloski (talk) 00:17, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dear B. Jankuloski, the comment of Инокентиј bellow said that "we had an agreement with the Archives for tree months and the agreement expired at 15 September 2015" - as it was the contract with Macedonian WiR at the Archives with Shared Knowledge. No one has access to archive materials at National Archives from 15 September 2015 as you know already. I agree to talk directly to the Archives, rather than risk misrepresentation of facts. Regards Violetova (talk) 02:05, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Comment You are referring to something unrelated. What you mean is that we had the intention to provide him with paid tenure at the Archives for three months. As you know, he received only a month's payment, then he went on doing the work on volunteer basis. That was a matter of Shared Knowledge itself and bears no relation to my point whatsoever. He simply is, and has always been our WiR since June. --B. Jankuloski (talk) 02:29, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, he is not, because simply, in the Archives there is no WiR and no one is there from 15 of September 2015 . Violetova (talk) 02:32, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Comment As I said above, there has been no discontinuation of our collaboration with the Archives (written or verbal), therefore Инокентиј still has full access there. It would be best that you collaborate with him, as @MADe: suggested, to work towards the same goals. helping his volunteer work. If someone at the Archive thinks that there is a reason why Иноекнтиј shouldn't be there anymore, or that his tenure is for some reason terminated, as you allege, then I suggest that that person should come forward and say that here. --B. Jankuloski (talk) 08:56, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I do not understand why you are repeating the same thing, when in the Archives there is no WiR and no one is there from 15 of September 2015. It is nonsense to suggest that official person or director of the Archives will come on meta to say that. But the official person from WMF could check this out. Regards Violetova (talk) 10:07, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@MADe:@KHarold (WMF): Hi. It is very disappointing the way I'm presented by Violetova. First, they gave me the documents in digital form and I have them - so it is a blatant lie that they will not give me documents. Secondly, I was there on several occasions to ask for the translated documents, and I told the Director of the Archives that I will come there less often for the documents because I have them on the PC, and I will only need translations. He agreed to all this on each occasion. It seems that this is a slander against me, and that something has been talked unbeknownst to us. I saw Violetova come to the archives several times while I was active there. So now I wonder if she has been sabotaging me all this time by telling lies to the person in charge.
Another remark I would like to make is that Violetova is not familiar with the laws in Macedonia. No one in this country can have access to documents in thise Archives because they are protected by law, and only authorised professionals can work with them. This means that scanning the documents will and can not be part of her work there, as they can be handled only by the aforementioned professionals and given to her in ready digital form. They only thing that she will need to do is to acquire the translations for them. Maybe that is the reason why he has chosen ASNOM as a topics, because translations are not needed for it. This is a short period around World War II, and the documents are written in modern Macedonian. On the other hand, most of the documents in the Archives are from the Ottoman period (stretching for five centuries and written in Ottoman Turkish with the Arabic alphabet) and many Old Church Slavonic manuscripts (almost unreadable to modern readers). All of these need translation and they are the most numerous and valuable historical documents that need to be digitalised.
The Internet connection at the Archives is very poor and that is why I did (and still do) my work at home, rather than there. Because of this new-found situation, I fear that my volunteer engagement there may be terminated, I have been uploading all the documents I have without the needed translations (which I'll do later in my spare time, using other translators). As a proof that the Internet connection at the Archives is terrible, I provide you with this screenshot made some time ago when I was working there, showing that 3 regular-sized files were still being uploaded after 2 hours 7 minutes. --Инокентиј (talk) 14:06, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Violetova:, there is no need for fights here, there is enough work to do.

Violeta, I need you to rework your proposal.
Firstly, expand your assignment by increasing the number of uploads you plan, including "Wikipedian tours" and edit-a-thons, clarify the number of new articles you plan to write.
Secondly, please talk to @Инокентиј: and use your experiences to improve your request. What has worked in the past, what did not work, what can you improve .. From the discussion above I see that you have learned a lot ... but this is not reflected in the budget Инокентиј talks about a bad internet connection.. maybe a 4G router solves this issue? I read that here is a long waiting qeue for translations with the museum, why don't you ask this the community?
Don't waste your time fighting and discussing, use your positive energy to get something organised MADe (talk) 16:18, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you MADe for your suggestions. I already increase the number of uploads, I included edith-a-thons in the Archives (Wikipedian tours will be part of this activity). Инокентиј lives in Skopje, same town as myself, we could arrange meeting very easy. The materials I will start with (suggestion from the Archives officials) will be the documents about ASNOM period of Macedonian history. After ASNOM, I will work with WW I materials and documents, as the officials proposed. They are all in Macedonian language, as I was told, no need for translation. To get community help about translations if there is need, is a very good idea.
About internet connectivity, I can say nothing at the moment, but for sure a 4G router can solve the issue. Internet access is part of the Archives in kind expenses, so I could talk to the official person about the router. Thank you for this idea. Regards Violetova (talk) 23:31, 27 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Community comments[edit]

Dear @Violetova:
You mention in your Item Measures of success you will uploaded at least 500 files after 6 months and at least 100 improved and/or new articles after 6 months, I think a simple wikipedia editor can do better, at least 5000 and 500 articles ?I think you need to review your Measures of success --Touzrimounir (talk) 10:41, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Touzrimounir, could be that measures of success looks low, but we are talking about files and materials I will have to get from the Archives in order to upload them and use them to improve articles. I am not counting the files and articles which I will upload and create out of the Archives, as a volunteer Wikipedian. Much more, the previous WiR at the same institution, uploaded only 83 documents for time period of three months. I hope to be much more productive. Regards, -Violetova (talk) 12:54, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]


I was mentioned in this request so i feel the need to explain the situation so all the facts be at your disposal

Dear GAC members I write you as a member of Shared Knowledge, member of the executive board, coordinator of the education program at the Macedonian Wikipedia and volunteer at the National Archive of Macedonia. I as wikimedian in residence at the National Archive have been doing this free of charge with my resources and with the time at hand, most of the documents need to be translated and most of the employees at the archives don't have the time to do that. For some of the important documents I have been waiting from September. Also I have visited the employed translators several times to see if they have translated some of the documents and they always tell me that they have obligations for which they are payed. Just to mention that we had an agreement with the Archives for tree months and the agreement expired at 15 September 2015 but I'm still in contact with the employees to help me aquare more documents but that is a slow process. And Violetova is not in the position to argue my work and to compare it to something that will be done for money as I do it in the spirit of the volunteerism. I need to mention that the user who is requesting this grant has revoked her membership from the organization. So I simply ask you dear GAC members to look in to this request from all sides and to hear the facts as openly as it can be.--Инокентиј (talk) 22:52, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As regarding "the spirit of the volunteerism", I was at that time Chief of the Board of Shared Knowledge, and I remember signed and transfer money for WiR in the summer. It is also mention in the Shared Knowledge report. --Violetova (talk) 16:29, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Comment I can testify that Tsvetko (Инокентиј) went on being a volunteer WiR at the Archives after the rule was introduced and voted in the Statute that no board member shall receive financial compensation for any activity. This change was made after a reminder to that effect from Alex Wang regarding the involvement in WikiWomen. In these new circumstances, Tsvetko decided that he should remain a WiR at the Archives, as a volunteer, without compensation. We also realised that the Archives' needs for material are less than we expected, and thus Tsvetko modified his activities there accordingly, reducing engagement to a suitable level. The compensation money was thus re-purposed to more productive purposes, i.e. other projects. --B. Jankuloski (talk) 18:52, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Kiril Simeonovski[edit]

Thanks for your submission and comments Violetova, thanks for your comments Touzrimounir, Polimerek, MADe, KHarold (WMF), DerekvG, Инокентиј and B. Jankuloski. As I have already refrained from evaluating this grant request as a GAC member because of the conflict of interest explained above, please consider me thoughts as of a community member or specifically President of Share Knowledge.

  • I support the idea of having an additional Wikipedian in residence (WiR) at the National Archives of the Republic of Macedonia (DARM) along with our volunteer but only with a clear distinction between the responsibilities of the two. It is really a bad idea to have someone who gets paid for the job that another person does voluntarily in the same institution and I frankly do not think that any community member will be happy with it.
  • In June 2015, a memorandum of agreement between Shared Knowledge and the National Archives of the Republic of Macedonia was signed and Инокентиј was appointed Wikipedian in residence. His tenure started on 16 June 2015 under a monthly rollover contract and a monthly compensation of €500. Initially, the introduction of a Wikipedian in residence was planned at the National and University Library "St. Kliment of Ohrid" (NUBSK) but the negotiations failed to succeed and we decided to reorient to other institutions (please see our budget here and the notification here).
  • In August 2015, following the changes of the bylaws and internal discussions on the work done by the WiR, Инокентиј announced that he would recuse from receiving compensation for his tenure as WiR after 15 September 2015 and he would continue working as a volunteer onwards. Nevertheless, this did not mean that the memorandum of agreement was abolished by any of the signing parties and Инокентиј has still full access of the materials as a volunteer.
  • My main concern, however, is Violetova's aggressive approach and the lack of truthfulness in the information she provides on this page. The response to Touzrimounir's comment that "the previous WiR at the same institution, uploaded only 83 documents for time period of three months"; the response to MADe's comment in which she says that "there is no WiR after 15 of September 2015" (although, he works as a volunteer), "the employees are not allowed to collaborate, to take out or send materials to the person who is with no contract" (although, there is a memorandum of agreement) and the conclusion that she is "not taking over an activity already done by an anyone" have all backfired and invited us to defend the work done by our volunteer at DARM and thereby the work done by our organisation. In support to the fact that our volunteer has still access to the materials at DARM and works on enriching the Wikimedia projects, please check his most recent updates on Wikimedia Commons as part of the cooperation with DARM (please see here).
  • Finally, we are all open to collaborate with Violetova and share our experiences with her but we sincerely appreciate assuming good faith in presenting the facts and showing regard to our member's voluntary efforts.

I hope this comment will help community members, GAC members and WMF staff to draw important conclusions in the process of evaluating this grant request. Best regards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:07, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Kiril for your comments and for contribution page of Инокентиј, where we can see that his last upload as WiR is on 8 September 2015, and he continue this days - at 16 November 2015, with the files he get from DARM in the summer, saving them on his laptop, but never uploaded them, till now. I would like to ask official person from WMF to make a contact with the Director of the Archives, Filip Petrovski, Ph. D, and find the true regarding Инокентиј's access to the materials at DARM and his work as WiR there. Regards, Violetova (talk) 16:13, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WMF comments[edit]

Hi Violetova, thank you for submitting a request for funding for digitization work at DARM. The proposal is very well written, clearly you have learned a lot in your time as a GAC member! Thank you Инокентиј for sharing your experience working with DARM. It is helpful to learn about how delays in translation affected your work. We look forward to your response to our questions and comments below.

  • Have you investigated how much DARM staff time will be required to make digitized materials useful for the Macedonian community? Do you have a plan for translating materials if DARM staff is unavailable to do so?
  • Please give more details about what kind of content you will be focusing on and why it was chosen. Given Инокенти’s experience, please update your request with the number of relevant documents DARM has on each subject that you will work on.
  • Your measures of success include 100 articles written using digitized materials. Keep in mind that WiR’s should not be writing articles using digitized materials, but should engage GLAM staff and community members in editing through planning trainings, workshops and editathons. You can learn more about projects and characteristics of WiR’s. https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedian_in_Residence#Core_characteristics_of_a_Wikipedian_in_Residence
  • In the ‘Additional sources of revenue’ section you state that “the compensation for that person is up to the Archives.” Please clarify what you mean by that.
  • Grants that include the purchase of equipment such as laptops and scanners should include a plan for how the equipment will be used after the grant is over.

Please let us know if you have questions or need clarification on our comments, or if you would like to discuss your plans on a call. Cheers, --KHarold (WMF) (talk) 01:27, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi KHarold (WMF), thank you for your kind words. My responses on your comments:
  • There are plenty of Macedonian language materials in the Archives. If the DARM stuff will be slow in progress with documents I cannot use by myself or have to be translated, I could work with available documents, which are ready to upload.
  • As I was told, DARM is ready to release around twenty thousand documents for commons and Wikimedia projects. My first focus will be the documents about ASNOM period of Macedonian history. It was suggestion from DARM. At the moment, I do not know the number of documents on each subject. If the number is necessary, I could ask tomorrow in DARM.
  • One of my strategy goals is to educate new editors from a target group - GLAM employees. I have already arranged to hold seminars on how to edit Wikipedia for DARM stuff. While WiR in the Archives, I expect to have at least three or four DARM employees as new editors on Wikipedia. But, please do not get as negative if I edit articles. I love to do so.
  • My apologize for unclear sentence. I meant to write that is up to DARM to pay the person (DARM employee) who will collaborate with WiR.
  • Laptop is necessary equipment for WiR. I intend to continue as WiR in DARM after the first 6 months, partly because the letter of intend from DARM is signed for 12 months for me, and finally because the Archives are willing to release around 20,000 documents. So, the answer is that the laptop will be still in use for Wikimedia projects long after the first six months.
Regards, Violetova (talk) 22:01, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Violetova, Инокентиј, MADe and Bjankuloski06 for adding your experiences and suggestions to this discussion. We now have a much clearer understanding of what resources are available at DARM and the differences in focus between what Violetova proposes to do and what Инокентиј is focusing on. We have a few more questions and suggestions before we can make a decision on this proposal:
  1. Have you, or the directors at DARM, done any kind of survey to learn how many DARM staff members are want (and have time) to attend editing workshops?
  2. Have the materials that you propose to upload already been digitized? If not, is there sufficient staff support to get the materials digitized for you to upload?
  3. Please develop a more detailed plan for how you will get other Wikimedians to incorporate uploaded materials into articles. You will need to do more than host an editathon to reach your goal of starting or improving 300 articles. You might consider hosting a writing contest, thematic editing weeks, engaging with editors in Wikiprojects, asking DARM to help with editor outreach through their networks, or provide resources that compliment Wiki Expeditions planned by Shared Knowledge.
  4. Please confirm whether DARM will make sufficient changes to their internet connection or provide you with a hotspot so that you will be able to upload files in a reasonable amount of time.

Thank you again to everyone who has contributed to this discussion. We look forward to your responses and hope to make a decision on this proposal soon. Cheers. --KHarold (WMF) (talk) 20:04, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi KHarold, and thank you for the questions and suggestions.
  1. As I was told, in DARM office (where I will be a WiR) there are at least four employees willing to learn on how to edit articles and how to upload files on Wikimedia projects. One woman employee was already trained in the spring time, in the project WikiWomen Macedonia. I was told that the Director of DARM will release them (DARM staff members) from other duties several hours a day, in order to attend editing workshops.
  2. All materials and files are ready to be upload, i.e. DARM has digitized them already.
  3. I really appreciate your suggestions on how to improve 300 articles. It is a big help to think on a wide range of possibilities. My plan is to host edithathons with Wikimedians willing to help plus DARM employees who will have time to take a part. DARM has sections in nine cities in Macedonia, which gives me more opportunity to work with more GLAM employees. I will have to travel to reach them, but I have no problem with traveling. Writing contests and thematic editing weeks, are a very good possibility. Now I am thinking to host a contest which will involved Wikipedians from other wiki languages to get a part in the contest (similar to Bulgarian Archives Challenge). Any idea and collaboration about this issue, is welcome.
  4. I spoke with the official person in DARM last week, and he assures me that the problem with internet connection is already solved. If there occur any problems with internet access, DARM is willing to get a router.
Regards, Violetova (talk) 15:25, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Funding decision[edit]

Following the discussion on this talk page and through several emails with Violetova, we have developed a good understanding of how the activities included in this request will benefit the Macedonian community without without interfering with the valuable volunteer work by Инокентиј. We hope that the two find ways to support each other in their work, even though they are working with different subjects. We are pleased to approve the request with the understanding that Violetova will be focusing on uploading and categorizing materials on Commons, training GLAM employees, and hosting various events and activities to encourage other editors to improve articles using the materials uploaded during the residency. We will provide 400 euros to Shared Knowledge to fund the purchase of the laptop. Shared Knowledge has agreed to make the laptop available to Violetova for the duration the project. After the project is completed, Shared Knowledge will make the laptop available to other members of the community to carry out mission related projects. Thank you to everyone who participated in this discussion. The questions, suggestions and details you have shared have contributed to the development of this proposal. We look forward to checking in with Violetova three months into the project for an update on activities, plans and progress toward meeting the measures of success. --KHarold (WMF) (talk) 23:48, 7 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Addition of DARM Challenge[edit]

Please note we have increased the total amount of this grant by 120 EUR to cover an associated contest, described in the DARM Challenge Rapid Grant proposal. Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 17:00, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]