Grants:IdeaLab/WikiProject Women

Idealab

WikiProject Women

An on-wiki area for women only (those who identify as women) to recruit, encourage, and support other women editors.

idea creator• Lightbreather

volunteer• ParulThakur• Smirkybec• Hmlarson• Luxxxbella

this project needs...

volunteer

created on23:32, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Project idea

What is the problem you're trying to solve?

A place where women can feel safe and not always overwhelmed by male advice, criticism, and explanations.

Or, to put it in the form of a problem, there is currently no space on-wiki where a woman can go and be sure that she'll be able to participate in discussions without being dominated by men's voices. Lightbreather (talk) 16:55, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

What is your solution?

Using the user preferences "Internationalisation" setting for those who prefer to be described as "she," plus a project moderator administered process where editors pledge that they are women and have read and agreed to the project's rules, registered women editors may join the group and discuss Wikipedia related matters. It would probably be more focused on community, policies, and guidelines than on content, but content discussion would not be off limits.

Male editors would be able to read about the project and its discussions.

Get Involved

Participants

• Volunteer I can spread the word, contribute in any way possible to make this success. ParulThakur (talk) 05:35, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
• Volunteer I've been trying to run more events in Ireland about increasing content relating to women in Ireland since we've started a Wikimedia Community Ireland, so I'd love to be able to tie that work in with the larger community. I'm happy to do anything I can to raise awareness etc Smirkybec (talk) 11:59, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
• Volunteer I can spread the word and I'll keep an eye on this project... I'm confident we can become a strong community of women, it's about time we organize :) Luxxxbella (talk) 20:24, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
• Volunteer Can help support + will keep an eye on project. Hmlarson (talk) 22:11, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Endorsements

• we can use a multiplicity of friendly spaces. Slowking4 (talk) 01:05, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
• yes indeed. as per this post from Planet Wikimedia, we are discovering as we grow our community that not all plants need the same amount of water, light, or temperature. -- Djembayz (talk) 02:59, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
• Excellent idea. I think this could make a big difference to the gender-gap problem. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:49, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
• Good idea; I could see it strongly benefitting some women. A space like this might benefit from having a community manager, as well. Fhocutt (talk) 07:39, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
• Great idea!! WikiWomen's Collaborative is at your disposal :) Missvain (talk) 17:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
• Yes please - there have been discussions amongst female-identified volunteers and editors in the UK community and while we want to continue to collaborate across all spaces and projects, we feel that a female identified specific space would be a useful source of advice and support! Leela0808 (talk) 12:35, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
• There are numerous spaces where men and women can discuss women's concerns and collaborations, and they quickly become spaces where mostly men are discussing women's concerns and collaborations. The WikiProject needs a community that prioritizes women's voices, due to women being such a slim minority. Will spread the word, and hope to contribute when I have time. Ongepotchket (talk) 02:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
• women need support for a stronger voice in wikipedia 2602:306:8B12:6970:1CD3:3441:4DFC:9D6D 13:02, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
• Strongly endorse. Would encourage women. We are losing ground. we should be 50-50. it's time to do something different.Kmccook (talk) 20:16, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
• Weak endorse. I wholeheartedly want to support women editors, but I don't like the feeling that we need a ghetto or the short bus to participate. We need to toughen up a bit. I know a lot of men who have also been run off WP due to many of the same issues. That said, women do face unique challenges, and contrary to the oppose votes below, it isn't "discriminatory" to acknowledge the reality of harassment and the need for a safer place. When editors who I know to be men posing as women start to troll places like this thread, (note the oppose votes below then go read wikipediocracy to find out which one I'm talking about) I must throw my lot in with the supporters as I don't want to make the perfect the enemy of the good. Montanabw (talk) 20:35, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
• I may not join but if there are female editors who feel that they need a place like this then one ought to be available. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 20:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
• Weak support. At this point, I'm pretty much of the mind that women don't encourage women to edit Wikipedia. The potential for harassment is real, and is a threat to their employment and work in academia. The support infrastructure is... well, not there. Unless there is a way to address the underlying cultural issues that make Wikipedia such a hostile environment for women, this feels like trying to find a bandaid solution to a gunshot wound. :( Look at what happened with the GenderGap Task Force. Something needs to be done though, and if a bandaid is it, then a bandaid it shall be. --LauraHale (talk) 21:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
• Sounds like a great idea for encouragement and support for women contributors. Hmlarson (talk) 22:08, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
• Although I understand the concerns below, this may be a needed alternative to the GGTF. Miniapolis (talk) 22:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
• Somewhat endorse. I would really like to be a "she" here. Yes, I am female and a "she" IRL. The internationalization idea is great. It is my own damn fault for choosing the user name that I did (I love javelinas), but as a result, I am often perceived as a teen-aged male. I realize that this is more than pronouns, although that is important. However, I agree with what Montanabw said, and have similar concerns as expressed by LauraHale. Also, there will be genuine not-cis people and a variety of trolls who will pitch a fit that this is exclusionary. Trolls should never be a reason for not doing something though. Whatever form this takes, you/we really will need to lay down the law so that you/we are not undermined, ridiculed and eventually defeated as in the past. I'm referring to the obstacles that Laura mentioned. It becomes overwhelming to fight these people, then one questions "why even bother?" and that ends a female Wikipedia editor's participation. --FeralOink (talk) 00:07, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment/Suggestion: First, my apologies for being a foolish and uninvited male offering unsolicited advice which quite likely is either already been followed by some of you, or has already been considered and rejected as inadequate for some other reasons. But I feel kind-of-obliged to make this suggestion just on the off-chance that it turns out to be actually useful. As I coincidentally already more-or-less said on LB's English Wikipedia Talk Page before I even knew about this proposal, it seems to me that the best solution, for those of you who want such a solution, is quite likely to be to form a discussion group off Wikipedia, by invitation only, either on Facebook, or on Yahoo Discussion Groups, or on some other forum with which I'm unfamiliar. As it's off-Wiki, you don't have to worry about males (or others) complaining about discrimination (any Wikipedian objecting is trying to violate your right of free association, etc), you don't have to worry about opposes, you don't have to get consensus. One or more of you can just go ahead and set up a discussion group with 'closed' (by-invitation-only) membership, then invite Wiki-women and/or Wikifeminists and/or female WikiFeminists to join, perhaps using Wikipedia's private message system to send them invitations (don't send me an invitation as I'm neither a women not a feminist, as distinct from an occasional sympathiser on a case-by-case basis). You can always start up a group right away, and then consider moving somewhere else later on if there turns out to be better forums available elsewhere.

• Having made this hopefully just possibly helpful suggestion, I now propose to withdraw from the discussion, as I don't feel I belong here (and quite likely my suggestion is actually unhelpful, in which case I don't want my foolish male ego pushing me to argue that it is helpful when it isn't). If somebody needs clarification of some point, please feel free to ask me on my English Wikipedia Talk Page (or on my Meta Talk Page, but you might then want to leave a short message on my English Wikipedia Talk Page to let me know it's there). But I probably won't know the answer to your question (I haven't explored much of Facebook's potential and I was last active on Yahoo Discussion Groups back in 2002). My apologies if I've been foolishly wasting your time. Good luck to you all, and I hope it all works out well for you. Tlhslobus (talk) 09:17, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• Good idea. In my experience too many discussions get overwhelmed by men - some are aware of the risk of taking over discussions but inadvertently do it; some aren't; some (few, but a few with a significant impact) deliberately seek to disrupt discussion about gender. Chris Keating (The Land) (talk) 11:50, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Opposition

• Oppose as discriminatory.
• Will fight this tooth and nail. This is ridiculous, and is in strictly prohibited by the WMF non-discrimination policy. 172.56.3.162 09:04, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
• As a male contributor I would strongly support this project if it would have a different scope:
  • Either as a project targeting women-related topics, like en:Wikipedia:WikiProject African diaspora or en:Wikipedia:WikiProject Disability do.
  • Or as a project targeting participating of women, which seems already be a task of en:Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias

  However, I do not agree with an idea of a space on-wiki where a woman can go and be sure that she'll be able to participate in discussions without being dominated by men's voices. This seems to be a strong discrimination, as so far there were no on-wiki spaces with any sort of restriction on participation, moreover, this seems to state that male participants are not able to provide constructive arguments in disussions with female users.

  Just imagine an opposite — a WikiProject where females are banned from participation. Or, even worse, a page where only black users (or only white users) can participate, or a page where only users of particular religious views can participate (e.g. Jewish users who state that don't want to be dominated by Muslim voices). This would be a ridiculous discrimination, however, this proposal would set a very worrying precedent of such discrimination

  I do agree that both women-related topics and participation of women are decent topics for WikiProjects (and both are of a certain interest to me), but please do this without discrimination — NickK (talk) 13:33, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

• As a female editor, this is wholeheartedly and painful discrimination. I don't need a special place where only I can speak, nor where my male editors which I encounter every day can't contribute. Plus, the proposal is just plain vague. A place where male editors can't contribute where 'advice, criticism, and explanations' from men are not allowed. Seriously, this whole proposal is based on the false premise that male editors are intimidating, that Wikipedia is deserving of being segregated by sex and that women need their own space where they can't be criticized by the other sex. This is out of the window in terms of civility, wikilove, and everything like it. Oppose. Tutelary (talk) 19:55, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as discriminatory. --Avono (talk) 20:17, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose: per Tutelary, but also because it would lock out women (cis, trans, whatever) who for some reason do not wish to identify as such online. BethNaught (talk) 20:50, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per NickK's expanded example and Tutelary. Intothatdarkness (talk) 23:16, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
• Nowhere is it explained how a discussion being "dominated by male voices" constitutes an actual problem. If anything, this notion strikes me as patronizing, especially in an environment where participants do not see each other face-to-face and thus there is normally no reason for their gender to come up. It's antithetical to the notion that women are equal to men. Would anyone similarly object to a discussion being dominated by the voices of the right-handed? Or the brown-eyed? 69.159.80.46 23:48, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

  Just to clarify, in some cases gender will come up for grammar reasons, however, frequency of this varies from one language to another. The simplest example is when someone uses a male pronoun for a female user who may want to object. The only way to avoid gender coming up is to have a userpage with simplest userboxes and never participate in discussions, otherwise sooner or later it will come up — NickK (talk) 23:58, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

• oppose I have to say I also see this as violating the WMF discrimination policy. Further, since by definition editors would be excluded, (and by the proposers reasoning, a super-majority would be excluded) no consensus or decision could ever be formed on any topic, rendering the site nothing but a WP:FORUM. If thats the goal, just go make a forum off-wiki where there are no policy barriers and the ladies can commune to their hearts content. 75.100.91.5 00:15, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose: This very premise is discriminatory. Reason first. I did not receive one of the canvassing posts to my user page, although I am female. (So this will be a sorority then, for the in-crowd?) Secondly, I do not want to be in a cloister of women in habits and hair coverings. I have taken such abuse from men on EnWiki (one that is an unusual suspect and shall remain nameless) it would make your hair curl. Yet I value the input of male voices. This would make us seem like fainting flowers. I can, have and will continue to fend for myself amongst the dogs as well as the cats. Fylbecatulous (talk) 00:40, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - There is definitely a problem in gender disparity on Wikipedia, and I do want Wikipedia to be a place for each and every individual to contribute without feeling intimidated - but I do not think this is a good idea to implement. Tutelary's rationale is well-put and I agree with it. Wikipedia is largely governed by the idea that anyone in the community can contribute to discussions; splitting off discussions to a women-only forum, in which men cannot contribute, comment, or offer constructive criticism is not something that fosters a community-driven environment. We need to find solutions that help integrate women into the community, not segregate. I think any projects that do help give women editors resources is a good one, as long as anyone is able to still contribute. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 05:20, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Additional comment - In a way, this made me think of the Teahouse, which was created as a resource for new members to receive welcoming and patient help from experienced editors - and it has functioned very well. Not only has the Teahouse helped improve editor retention, but 28% of Teahouse participants were women in the pilot (vs. the <10% of overall women editors). Yet, anyone is free to ask or answer questions at the Teahouse if they like - the only "limitation" is that designated hosts must be experienced, and that's a merit-based allocation that is not a requirement to answer questions. I would support a similar forum that revolves around supporting women and discussing Wikipedia in regard to female editing, as long as it does not prevent participation based on gender. Such a forum would (ideally) host a women majority, without preventing potentially valid input from the proposed discluded audience (which includes men, IP editors, and anyone who doesn't feel comfortable with disclosing their gender). ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 05:46, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose- What happens when feminists start saying things like "prostate cancer isnt a big deal and shouldnt be funded? Women cannot be trusted to talk about male issues, ESPECIALLY feminists
• Oppose- if you feel like you need said safe haven make a feminist wikipedia, let the grown up women stay where they should be (en.wiki) and work with the rest of the community like the adults they are. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 12:33, 10 January 2015 (UTC)