Grants talk:PEG/WM ZA/Wiki Loves Monuments

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Previous report[edit]

Hi Lourie, Thanks for submitting this grant request. However, is it possible for us to get a grant report of your previous grant Abbasjnr (talk) 20:51, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I second the Abbasjnr reqeest. Polimerek (talk) 22:32, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
The meeting for which that grant was only happened last week, so the report will take some time to get formulated. Will have it available in about five days. LouriePieterse 19:21, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
I forgot to mention this earlier, but the report is currently under review here. LouriePieterse 19:28, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Some thoughts[edit]

Thanks for the submission Lourie. The project is fine, but the amount requested seems to be overestimated. My concerns are explained in the following questions:

  1. Could you please give more explanation on the gala events and the possibility to reduce the cost in a decent manner for the project? In the budget you have more than a third of the total cost for organizing gala events, which seems too much for a project with different goal. I understand the importance of the event launch and the awarding ceremony, but having these events is not the essential part that contributes to the quality of the material created during the operation period.
  2. Do you think it's possible to execute these activities in the given deadline? Why don't you hatch the end of this project with the end of the calendar year?
  3. How many people will take part in the project and what are the geographical regions that will be covered? It's very important to have a geographical diversity and to include as much cultural heritage as possible. Since you have significant transportation costs, it sounds like you already have a wide geographical diversity for this project.
  4. Do you have any cooperation with other interested parties that wish to support these activites?

Best regards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:34, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Response[edit]

  1. The total price of the closing function/prize giving gala has been drastically revised. Also we are in discussion with National Heritage Council to fund this item completely. We will find out shortly if they will, nonetheless we have revised the value to $8,539.71 which is just under a quater of the total cost.--Thuvack (talk) 12:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  2. We are conforming with the international timeline of the competition which aims for End of November as the deadline for completion.--Thuvack (talk) 12:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  3. We have a team of 7 strong as Organizers and two WMZA board members who will be assisting us. We are busy recruiting other wikimedians in Johannesburg and Cape Town who will be deployed to provinces during upload marathon day. Our partners have also commited extra personel to assist us at the venues they are donating for the day. Thus when it comes to personel, we are well prepared. --Thuvack (talk) 12:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  4. I have added a section that mentions our partners for this project. We do have more partners, but currently we do not have a written agreement yet. As soon as we have these letters we will add the information. LouriePieterse 19:25, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for answering on my questions. It sounds good to me that you're having a discussion with the National Heritage Council to fund the gala event that will surely reduce the cost significantly. For the deadline it's good to adhere to the global end of the project this year, but it might not be enough time for such a promising project to complete in a tight period of time. Best.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:12, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Supports Kiril Simeonovski's thoughts, the appropriate response to it by Pieterse and Kiril's reactions to the same. Hope someone will promptly showcase the final results of your efforts (for external funding and partners) here. ViswaPrabha (വിശ്വപ്രഭ) (talk) 02:18, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Just an update. The NHC had their National board meeting yesterday. We will find out the result of their discussions during the course of the week. But our contact says that we have their support, its now only a matter of agreeing on total amount that they are willing to allocate for the project. We keep our fingers crossed.--Thuvack (talk) 12:10, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

More Thoughts[edit]

I'm seeing the budget breakdown frist and will write here my concerns (I will read the rest after).

To start, an observation: I can't believe a WLM can be that expensive (I know it for a fact because we did it last year with a budget of ~1,5K euro, and zero cost for the chapter)
1.1 - Press advertising slots: Why pay for ads? WLM sells itself, and the papers will want to go after you to know about (doesn't matter if they like us or not, newspaper will always talk about Wikipedia in each time they have a "excuse" for)
1.4 - Telcom cost: To talk with international organizers? Skype and e-mails aren't enough? (from my experience, we didn't call anyone else once)
1.5 - Printed T-shirts: The international team will hand T-shirts to the organizers (last year, each country received 10). And if they don't, why 50? The organizing team is that big?
2.2 - Competition pamphlets: If the event is target to 100 people, why print 200?
2.4 Finger snacks: Why only 10, and why they are so expensive?
2.6 - Demonstration stations: Why it cost so much to desmostrate how WP works? One presentation like that is easy and "low-cost"
2.7 - Transport (Incl flights + Car rental): Car rental?? (see also Asaf's question below)
2.8 - Accommodation: How many people, for how many days? (see also MikyM question below)
3.1 - Banners: What is wrong with the 4 banners of 2.1, that they can't be used here?
3.4 - Transport (Incl flights + Car rental), 3.5 - Accommodation, 3.6 - Meals: Who is comming from outside town? Why can't be done with local people?
4.1 - Transport (Incl flights + Car rental), 4.2 - Accommodation, 4.3 - Meals: What are those 6,709.77 dollars for?
5.2 Themed decoration: The 4 banners of opening event aren't enough?
5.5 National Prize: What will be the prize here that is 800 dollars?
5.6 - Transport (Incl flights + Car rental), 5.7 - Accommodation: More 5k dollars to travel. Why?

Other observations: The cattering "needs" to be 2k dollars for 50 people? I find it incredibe expensive. Béria Lima msg 15:41, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Response[edit]

Beria, thanks for your thoughts. Here is a response to your thoughts.

  • 1.1 - Press advertising slots: We want to believe that this is the case indeed, unfortunately if we want a poster (which is much more effective than just a short article in some obscure part of a news paper) we will have to pay for this. The budgeted amount is much smaller than what they would actually charge per poster by three quaters. We hope to use the aura of Wikipedia to get cheaper rates, but will have to pay something even for that. --Thuvack (talk) 13:24, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • 1.4 - Telcom cost: -- This was meant to say, cost for telephone communication re-imbusements for organizers. I already have itemalised bill for all the phone calling that I have done from my private phone and it is scarry. This number is modest if we are to tally up cost od telephony for all 7 members of the organizing team (Skype has not penetrated South Africa as well as western countries, institutions and businesess still use land lines and mobile telephony)
  • 1.5 - Printed T-shirts: These will be used in all nine provinces as small participation prizes and for the volunteers and staff members we will be assigned. 100 T-Shirts works out to just above 12 T-shirt per province. We also plan to customise them for South Africa as part of WMZA outreach and exposure exercise.--Thuvack (talk) 13:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • 2.2 - Competition pamphlets: We are quite optimistic about the turn over for the launch as the HWC is actively assisting in popularising the event to all their 50+ museums in Cape town. Our estimate stands and seeing that each provincial marathon will only have 45 pamphlets, the remander from the launch will be redistributed to the provinces.--Thuvack (talk) 13:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • 2.4 Finger snacks This is the average value of a platter that can serve about 10 people. Given that expected turn over this could be actually insufficient. We are exploring other competitive prices and will revise this item should we find any.--Thuvack (talk) 13:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • 2.7 - Transport (Incl flights + Car rental): see response to Asaf's question below.--Thuvack (talk) 13:24, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • 2.8 - Accommodation: see rsponse to MikyM's question below. Days are shown for each event on the budget.--Thuvack (talk) 13:24, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • 3.1 - Banners The provincial upload marathons are to be held simulataneously in 9 provinces through out South Africa on Heritage day. We will re-use the above banners in Capetown and Johannesburg where we hope have two upload marathons for these cities.--Thuvack (talk) 13:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • 3.4 - Transport (Incl flights + Car rental), 3.5 - Accommodation, 3.6 - Meals: We are deploying one volunteer wikimedian to each of the 9 provinces of South Africa, since our wikimedian pool is concentrated in Johannesburg and Cape Town, we will have to fly/drive and accomodate them out of town. The only local people in most cases will be personel assigned for us by our partners.--Thuvack (talk) 13:52, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • 4.1 - Transport (Incl flights + Car rental), 4.2 - Accommodation, 4.3 - Meals: We will hold an adjudication session for all provinces at a central point in Johanessburg (Wits University), we will need to fly and accomodate our judges who are from different parts of the country.--Thuvack (talk) 13:52, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • 5.2 Themed decoration: -- We are looking at doing a closing event with a diversity in heritage theme due to the nature of our past as a country. The Banners in the oppening function will definately be re-used here.This will hopefully be taken over by NHC--Thuvack (talk) 14:49, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • 5.5 National Prize: We are considering a photo safari for the National winner and his/her family to a nature reserve (Kruger National Park). This will hopefully be taken over by NHC--Thuvack (talk) 14:49, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • 5.6 - Transport (Incl flights + Car rental), 5.7 - Accommodation: The item is for 10 people and thus works out to about $365. This will hopefully be taken over by NHC--Thuvack (talk) 15:00, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Travel breakdown[edit]

Could you provide some more detail about the intended use of the funds in the "travel and car rental" items? Who would be traveling, why rental cars over public transportation, etc.? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:30, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Because of the split of organizing personel between Johanesburg and Capetown (3 per city), we will need to fly down one part of the organizing team to the city where the event will be happening. We will also need to fly WMZA board members who are volunteers for this competition. The accessibility between the venues (District 6 for Capetown and Possibly Freedom Park/Apartheid Museum) is quite remote from the Air ports. The arriving members will need cars to assist with final preparation and arrangements on the eve of each event. I hope that this is clear enough (",)--Thuvack (talk) 13:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Is there a chance to breakdown points 3.4, 4.1 and 5.6 into two points, for example, beakdown point 3.4 into: 3.4.1 for Flights, and 3.4.2 for Car Rental, to see how much goes where?--3BRBS (talk) 23:40, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Yes, we will break these down over the weekend.--Thuvack (talk) 18:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
I have done a proper break down for this line item as requested.--Thuvack (talk) 12:10, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
I've reviewed Cape Town and O.R. Tambo airports, and both have public transport (buses) for arrivaing and leaving: for Cape Town (R57 or R114 roundtrip?)[1] and for O.R.Tambo (R20 or R40 roundtrip?) [2], so at least on the travel section, it seems that renting the car (R 2,000) is almost for to ten times more, than using public transport (R 570 or R 200), therefore, maybe public transport should be used instead of renting a car.--3BRBS (talk) 22:00, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi 3BRBS. Yes, there is (limited) public transport available. But you do not want to risk it. This is South Africa, remember? I refer you to the Wikitravel page on Joburg for more elaborate information on this. Also: rental cars are cheap, around 300 ZAR/d for a decent car with AVIS. MADe (talk) 22:08, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
If that's the case, then the cat renting should be one car for arrival day, one car for return day, for all the people, adding up a total of R 600 for the item, still a third of the actual estimate, right? Or considering using a small van, which I also saw it is available.--3BRBS (talk) 22:22, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Accommodations[edit]

Thanks for submitting this grant request and I'm realy happy to se that WM ZA has a progress. From budget breakdown seems that one nighte in hotel costs almost 160 dollars(3.5, 4.2 & 5.7). Can you tell us a little bit more about this? Who will stay at the hotel? In which hotel you planed to be? --MikyM (talk) 22:47, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Same as above point, due of the split of organizing personel between Johanesburg and Capetown (3 per city), we will need to fly down one part of the organizing team to the city where the event will be happening. We will also need to fly WMZA board members who are volunteers for this competition. We will also need to accomodate 1 individual from each Partner as a token of apreciation. The total sum of 1300ZAR is an averaged value between Johannesburg (Slightly affordable) and Capetown (Quite expansive). It also falls below the WMF accomodation cost guidelines. We will explore all possibilities of lowering this cost, including booking duplexes for members to share a room.--Thuvack (talk) 13:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your response, Thuvack. Yes, the costs in Capetown are quite expansive. I appreciate your desire to reduce the costs for accommodation. Booking twin room is very helpful. Not only because it would save donors money and give others a chance to apply for a grant. In another case, if someone have specials needes than is OK to stay alone in room. --MikyM (talk) 19:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
The prices provided are for hotels or hostels? If is the first, are hostels an option to consider for lowering costs?--3BRBS (talk) 23:42, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
If there will be individuals from each partners/sponsors, as Thuvack wrote above, booking hotel for partners/sponsors is, for me, fully acceptable. Organizatori could staying in hostel, but if they want to have a connection outside the official program, with partners, I think it's good to stay in the same place. --MikyM (talk) 15:41, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for responding MikyM, As discussed above, we are going to use duplexes where we can for the Launch event. The provincial events will involve 1 wikipedian at a time thus no option for duplexes. We still believe that we will be able to get accomodations as cheap as &100 to $120 for provincial marathons. I will separate and revise the accomodation costs over the weekend.--Thuvack (talk) 18:29, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks Thuvack: To make my opinion clear, I support hotel for Prize giving event where will be partners/sponsors. For marathon and all others activities where accommodation is only for the board members and volunteers, I would recommend to choice some hostel. --MikyM (talk) 22:41, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi guys. We have updated and broken down this item to show the reductions we managed to negotiate. Please have a look.--Thuvack (talk) 12:12, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Demonstration stations & Prizes[edit]

Hi Lourie and all the Project team,

First of all - a very well and thought of grant proposal; Thank you! I also took a look at the website and loved it.

I have a questions with regard to the Demonstration stations - they are simply computers displaying your website, right? Are they priced as rentals for the event only? If so, this makes sense; if they aren't and need to be purchased, I imagine the item is too small. Can you clarify this small thing? Otherwise, I see no reason not to approve Bill #1 &#2.

Prizes: Just a small note; I saw on your website there are 3 prizes, while your budget states only one. Does this mean you haven't decided? I think the line item in the budget could suffice for three prizes.NLIGuy (talk) 04:32, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello NLIGuy. Yes the Demonstration stations are rented laptops with internet connectivity. The amount includes short term insurance we would have to pay for these. Purchasing office equipment is premature at this stage as WMZA has not setup physical office yet. Thanks for looking at our website. Dont forget to check and "like" our Facebook page too. (",)--Thuvack (talk) 06:39, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Government Support[edit]

You mentioned the government (or otherwise 'official') support to the project; While this is a blessed thing, support could mean a lot of things, and I would like to encourage you to be more proactive in getting future support from other agencies and not only the WMF. I would use the Launch Event to set up discussions with the relevant people, so that your next grant will involve matching (in way of funding or other help) by some South African Government Agency or Heritage Western Cape. NLIGuy (talk) 04:32, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely correct! we have invited as many officials from the heritage sector as possible. The Launch will also demonstrate our proffessionalism and ability to excecute big (national projects) and will help bolster future support for local projects. --Thuvack (talk) 06:41, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

GAC members who have read this request but had no comments[edit]

  1. Seems to be OK. Polimerek (talk) 22:32, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
  2. Wifione (talk) 04:13, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  3. The points that were raised and answered satisfied me. -- Namayan (talk) 13:22, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

GAC members who have read the request and are currently studying the proposal[edit]

Assessment completed. Please see my comments at appropriate points at cost break-up analysis below. Thanks ViswaPrabha (വിശ്വപ്രഭ) (talk) 03:37, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
  1. NLIGuy (talk) 20:32, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
  2. Cindamuse (talk) 08:23, 30 July 2012 (UTC)


GAC members who have read, studied and concluded their assessment (of) the proposal[edit]

  1. ViswaPrabha (വിശ്വപ്രഭ) (talk) 20:14, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
  2. --3BRBS (talk) 23:03, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

GAC members who abstain from comment/vote[edit]

  1. Thuvack (talk) 06:11, 25 July 2012 (UTC) -- I am one of the Preject lead members for this grant.


Cost Breakdown Analysis[edit]

Qty Rate Total (Rand) Total (US Dollars) Notes
Bill No. 1 - Preliminaries and General
1.1 Press advertising slots (7 days before competition) 10 500.00 5,000.00 610.00 Support Support Agree that such minimal paid advertisement campaigns can help promote. Must tally with the local rates. Preferred to present some quotes now or later along with final financial statements. - VP
1.2 Postage 1 500.00 500.00 61.00 Support Support Agreed- VP
1.3 Website domain costs (1 year contract) 1 900.00 900.00 109.80 Support Support(With the hope that) this includes the complete infrastructure incl. sufficient web space, back-end programmability and database frameworks without added costs. If you intend to maintain the site after one year, how shall the costs be met? - VP
1.4 Telcom costs, including contact with overseas stakeholders 1 6,000.00 6,000.00 732.00 [1] Support Support Overseas calls should be minimized by means of e-mail and other possible methods. Actual bills presented later may help justifying the budget. Can we assume 7 members x 200 minutes x 2 ZAR = ZAR 2800 = US $350? What is the average call cost per minute in SA? 2 Rands? - VP
1.5 Printed T-shirts, for the competition 50 100.00 5,000.00 610.00 Support Support The prices should be negotiated. How much do they quote for 50 Numbers 3 or 4 Color 165 gram COMBED cotton t shirts (S-3XL) with first print costs included? (Personally, I believe well-themed T-Shirts are good campaign ad material. Even doubling the quantity with reduced per piece cost is suggested. - VP
1.6 Incidental costs & contingencies 1 2,600.00 2,600.00 317.19 Support Support agreed - VP
TOTAL BILL Number 1 20,000.00
15,000.00
2,439.92
1,829.92
Support Support agreed -
VP(വിശ്വപ്രഭ) (talk) 20:06, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Qty Rate Total (Rand) Total (US Dollars) Notes
Bill No. 2 - Event Launch (Target: 100 People)[2]
2.1 Banners 4 500.00 2,000.00 244.00 Support Support Agreed; Provided they are re-used later at 3.1. Would like to get more specs on the size and type of banners. - VP
2.2 Competition pamphlets 200 20.00 4,000.00 487.98 Support Support Agreed - VP
2.3 Event badges 5 100.00 500.00 61.00 [3] Support Support Agreed - VP
2.4 Finger snacks 10 500.00 5,000.00 610.00 Support Support Agreed. Should try to optimize cost and quantity within the budget - VP
2.5 Press Kits 10 200.00 2,000.00 244.00 [4]Support Support But What are the contents of this kit?- VP
2.6 Demonstration stations 5 1,000.00 5,000.00 609.98 [5] Support Support (Until more details are provided). How do these stations work? Are they indoor / outdoor stalls? Computer workstations / Projectors etc.? VP
2.7 Transport (Incl flights + Car rental) 5
5
2
3,000.00
2,500.00
1,000.00
15,000.00
12,500.00
2000.00
1,829.94
1,524.95
244.00
[6] Support Support Agreed after seeing explanations above at Sections 4 & 5 VP
2.8 Accommodation 5
1
4
1,300.00
1,300.00
750.00
6,500.00
1,300.00
3,000.00
792.97
158.60
365.99
[6]Support Support Agreed after seeing explanations above at Sections 4 & 5 VP
TOTAL BILL Number 2 40,000.00
37,300.00
4,879.83
4,550.45
Support Support agreed -
VP(വിശ്വപ്രഭ) (talk) 20:06, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Qty Rate Total (Rand) Total (US Dollars) Notes
Bill No. 3 - Provincial Upload marathon
3.1 Banners 1 500.00 500.00 61.00
3.2 Competition pamphlets 45 20.00 900.00 109.80
3.4 Transport (Incl flights + Car rental) 1 3,000.00 3,000.00 365.99 [7]
3.5 Accommodation 1 1,300.00 1,300.00 158.60 [7]
3.6 Meals 1 300.00 300.00 36.60 [7]
TOTAL BILL Number 3 6,000.00 731.98 Support Support agreed -
VP(വിശ്വപ്രഭ) (talk) 20:06, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Qty Rate Total (Rand) Total (US Dollars) Notes
Bill No. 4 - ADJUDICATION
4.1 Transport (Incl flights + Car rental) 5
1
2,500.00
1,000.00
12,500.00
1,000.00
1,524.95
122.00
[8]
4.2 Accommodation (2 nights) 2 6,500.00 13,000.00 1,585.95 [8]
4.3 Meals (2 nights) 2 1,500.00 3,000.00 365.99 [8]
TOTAL BILL Number 4 29,500.00 3,598.88 Support Support agreed -
VP(വിശ്വപ്രഭ) (talk) 20:06, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Qty Rate Total (Rand) Total (US Dollars) Notes
Bill No. 5 - Prize giving event (Target: 50 People)
5.1 Event catering 50 300.00 15,000.00 1,829.94
5.2 Themed decoration 1 4,000.00 4,000.00 488.00
5.4 Event badges 10 100.00 1,000.00 122.00 [3]
5.5 National Prize 1 7,000.00 7,000.00 853.97
5.6 Transport (Incl flights + Car rental) 10
3
2,500.00
1,000.00
25,000.00
3,000.00
3,049.90
365.99
[8]
5.7 Accommodation (1 night) 2
8
1,300.00
750.00
2,600.00
6,000.00
317.19
731.98
[8]
TOTAL BILL Number 5 63,600.00 7,758.94 Support Support agreed -
VP(വിശ്വപ്രഭ) (talk) 20:06, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
  1. Due to the international nature of this competition we will need to communicate with others overseas. One of our organizers also resides overseas, which further supports this item.
  2. Note that this is both the launch of the WLM competition and the WMZA chapter at the same time (such as already explained above).
  3. a b Similar to the badges used at conferences (only intended for the organizers).
  4. Actual information kits for press attending the event.
  5. Stations used to demonstrate the competition and Wikimedia projects in general.
  6. a b Chapter directors and organizing committee (calculated according to the WMF travel policy).
  7. a b c Wikimedian heading PUM operation (calculated according to the WMF travel policy).
  8. a b c d e Calculated according to the WMF travel policy.

One question[edit]

I have a positive view of the project. All the doubts that I had are already resolved by other GAC members. One minor issue:

  • I'm worried about spending on Press advertising slots. The spirit of the movement and the Foundation in general is opposed to invest any dollar in promotion or advertising. What other times Wikipedia has needed this type of paid promotion? Maybe you can search other methods can be equally effective in mass media, using PR with television, radio or newspapers for have free diffusion. Regards, --ProtoplasmaKid (talk) 18:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi ProtoplasmicKid. This is a valid concern. We will remove this item as one of the partners for the launch, has expressed interest in using their existing pre-agreement with one of the big media house to run a poster in the national paper for the duration (or part of the heritage month).--Thuvack (talk) 18:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
It's very good news that you have that support. The Grant proposal is right for me. Saludos, --ProtoplasmaKid (talk) 14:26, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
This item has been struck through from our budget.--Thuvack (talk) 12:14, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

A few more concerns[edit]

Thank you, WMZA team, for patiently addressing the various concerns raised by the GAC so far.

Adjudication[edit]

One expense I am still wondering about is the large sum reserved for accommodation under "adjudication". Why are we intending to pay for five hotel nights? Surely, the adjudication itself can be done electronically, eliminating the flights and accommodation for that part? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:23, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Regarding this point I agree with Asaf. I believe that it is possible to create an adjudication process that is remote through electronic methods, therefore this bill can be dramatically reduced, or simply, removed.--3BRBS (talk) 00:07, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
During preparation we discussed the judging sysstem with different experts (from newspapers, governmental agencies, ...). I also used my experience in last year's edition in Belgium. The judging will partially happen online, this will happen before the meeting. However, we do think a "irl" meeting is necessary for the last judging step. The judges are located troughout SA so this step deems necessary. MADe (talk) 08:40, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Please see my comments on this item below. We have however reduced the adjudication duration from 5 days down to 3 days.--Thuvack (talk) 12:15, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Two more cuts, please[edit]

I'm not sure I see the need for more than one solid day of work reviewing the short-list of photos. (if necessary, make sure the short-list delivered by the online adjudication process is short enough...). Therefore, I propose cutting down the hotel nights and meals to two days at most, allowing people to arrive and work a full day before leaving. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 01:16, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Asaf. We have cut down days from three to two. Our Judges are going to have a fright of their lives, but we will manage.--Thuvack (talk) 12:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 18:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Also, you budget for five flights, assuming all the jury would need to be flown in? Since the jury is (mostly?) known at this point, can this be recalculated to match the actual expectation for how many people need to be flown (and where?)? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 01:16, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

We had already budgeted for three judges from outside Gauteng and two organizers (Total of 5). we cannot reduce this item further. However the car rental has been reduced from 2 down to 1. I hope that this is acceptable.--Thuvack (talk) 12:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Yes, thanks. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 18:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

VAT[edit]

The budget adds VAT to the subtotal. Are we sure all the prices/estimates in the individual line items indeed before-VAT? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:23, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Asaf. Yes, all items above automatically attract VAT. We will however be able to claim back a portion of this from 2013 Tax returns. Also, because this is our first (And hopefully last) big grant request, we have to include VAT cost. This item will be excluded from future grants requests of WMZA.--Thuvack (talk) 12:19, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Merchandise[edit]

Under "non-financial requirements" you list "50 Timubk2 bags". Those bags cost almost $150 apiece (really! we sell them at cost), so 50x$150 = an additional $7,500 worth of merchandise, not including shipping, that WMF will be spending on WLM ZA. It's quite out of the question, I'm afraid. Please revise the request accordingly.

We are happy to send you hundreds of stickers and pins, though, and a few dozen T-shirts. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:23, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Asaf. This is noted, and we concur. The item of Timubk2 bags has been struck of our request, we have discussed previously that it would be cheaper to produce T-Shits in SA instead of a shipment from the US, hence we have costed the T-Shirts in our budget.--Thuvack (talk) 12:20, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Sum[edit]

I would like to state plainly that the total budget is still too high, and it is quite imperative that you re-think some of the expenses you propose. Also, the budget on the grant page itself does not seem to reflect the progress made in this discussion. For example, it still includes the ~$600 for press coverage, in its calculation. Please take a moment to present an updated request. (It is preferred to use strikethrough instead of simple deletion/substitution, to show the changes and cutbacks made.) Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:23, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Following my previous comment, I believe that you want to create a succesfull event, but I also have this conflincting feeling, that in the end U$ 34,420.00 (the total) is simply a lot of money. Trying to compromise, I believe, that the only bills that are fundamental are: Bill N°1 and Bill N°5, so maybe the effort should be focused on those two bills. If you don't create a launch event, you would still have the press advertising slots (right?), maybe not as glamourous, but probably more effective, because it reaches more people in the end. About the adjudication, if it's done electronically, you'll save those costs and the upload marathon... the impact of the contest might (or should) be enough motivation.--3BRBS (talk) 00:17, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
2+3/One of the goals is to get the involvement by the smaller language communities (Xhosa, Zulu, Suthu, ...). WM SA already did several projects targeted to those audiences and we accumulated experience on how to address those communities. This is not easy as most of them are hardly litterate, do not own a computer, ...
In the preparations we focussed on participating with a smartphone (really happy with the Android app!) and real events. These events are being promoted by the different municipalies, governmental agencies, museums, ... so we are confident we will get a good presences from the targetted communities. The multiple events (not only in Cape Town) also allow us to avoid any "suspicion" that we again focus on the English and Afrikaner communities. Skipping the events would also mean we lose the contact with our focus groups.
4/ As discussed above, we think a real judging meeting is necessary.
Overall/ I understand the questions on the big budget. In my opinion as an expat in SA, this is caused by the need for irl events. This is a general thing in SA, people only trust and believe you once you met them somewhere. After that they know your face and it's much easier to do business. It's difficult to explain, but it's how it works in SA. This means also expensive transport (and unreliable!!) and accomodation. MADe (talk) 08:58, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
We have considered the above argument on Adjudication. We will definitely be using online voting on our webpage and social media pages (especially for provincial adjudication) in order to filter good pictures from whatever number we get down to say 500 shortlisted for the scrutiny of judges during a real/live judging session. The main reason we are insisting on having an adjudication session is for competition credibility. Our partners will not take this competition serious if it the out puts are not scrutinized by reputable judges in photography or photo-journal communities. We have however reduced the session duration from 5 days down to 3 days of deliberation. We hope that this is acceptable.--Thuvack (talk) 11:36, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
We have revised the total amount requested considering all items that were omitted and those that we revised. We are down to $29K from $35K. Hopefully when NHC comes through during the week, we will be able to go below the $20K mark. All in all we have done a huge revision from the original $67K that was initially requested. I hope that everyone will appreciate this fact.--Thuvack (talk) 12:27, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Telecom costs[edit]

I would also like to cut this item considerably. Is there significant difficulty to use IP telephony etc., especially for international calls? Does this include more than "air time"? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 01:22, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Asaf. There is significant difficulty in this. Our country's telecom costs are amongs the highest in the world. We have however cut down to half the estimated cost.--Thuvack (talk) 12:10, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. (You did not respond about what this is providing for. Mobile phone air time? Wireless Internet hotspots?) Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 18:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi Asaf. This will be used for both. Wireless hot spots at all four events and "Air-Time" ompensation for organizers. My itemised phone bill would scare you. Luckily we have all resolved that we will engage network providers to see if they cant help us with regards wireless hot-spots. We have reduced this item nonetheless.--Thuvack (talk) 19:41, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Late comment but I hope that it may help[edit]

My concern is connected with the high percentage of costs dedicated to the accommodation and to the travel. There is no specific comment because they depends on the organization (if you have planned a big event, I cannot comment on that), but probably a different structure of the event would have saved more money (for instance is easier to move the organizers than to move a lot of people). At the moment I have calculated that the 30% of the budget is focused on the final event... it seems to me to high if I read the "fit to strategy". What I would suggest you is to change this section explaining better the points to have this big final event (to build better links with cultural partners? A big event would have more impact than smaller ones organized in several towns?). So I would invite you to focus better your strategy for WLM in consideration f the 30% of the costs concentrated at the end of the event. Basically highlight the relation costs/investments. --Ilario (talk) 09:59, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Ilario, thanks for your remarks.
First, on the travel arrangements: team SA is dispersed over different locations (the organisers are in JoBurg and Cape Town) and the only practical way to travel between those cities is by air. As public transportation is a no-go, you need rental cars, ... As per your remark, this means expensive travel. If the NHC would help us (talks are ongoing) most of this would disappear.
Second, on the final event: we want to involve as much people as possible. Our first idea was to organise smaller events in the different provinces, but this was unfeasible due to the concentration of volunteers in two regions, the high cost involved, and the lack of developed heritage agency in those provinces.
I hope this answers your questions. MADe (talk) 15:54, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi there Ilario, thank you for your comment. Please see above comments with regards to the format and structure of this competition in SA and why we chose this structure. We have revised the budget drastically in order to accommodate the response and concerns of the GAC up to thus far.--Thuvack (talk) 12:30, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. I understand your positions. Anyway my comment was only a proposal to explain and justify these costs and nothing else. Basically I agree with the project and with the budget. --Ilario (talk) 21:34, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Approval part 1+2[edit]

Hey all,

to allow everybody to make the necessary travel arrangments, and avoid the highly expensive tickets by booking too late, I would like to get approval for Bill 1. (Prelims) and Bill 2. (Event launch) before the end of this work week. In no way this is meant to pressure the decision making but it will allow to plan and organise the first part of our project.

We want to focus on the agreements we secured (with 3 governmental organisations, Heritage Western Cape, SAHRA, NHC and two private companies, Art South Africa and Africa Centre). They will help us with the practical organisation, but cannot help with reimbursing travel costs and accomodationsfor the organisers and volunteers outside the Western Cape. MADe (talk) 21:24, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

+1 . I support this request. We are fast running out of time at least for the Launch. We have begun preparations for the event inline with globaltime line. Considering that money transfers take soome time, this is really necessary. We sincerely apologize for putting any one under pressure.--Thuvack (talk) 21:33, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

For Bill No. 1 & 2, there are still some minor clarifications I have asked but not responded. However, appreciate that you have worked it out to reduce the amounts elsewhere. I have concluded my studies on Bill No.1 & 2 and cleared as shown in the cost analysis above. I shall assess the remaining ones after seeing more discussion.. ViswaPrabha (വിശ്വപ്രഭ) (talk) 22:50, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

The assessment of remaining bills Done! Appreciated the further pruning up. Thanks! ViswaPrabha (വിശ്വപ്രഭ) (talk) 20:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank You for Support[edit]

From team SA. A great THANK YOU! to all GAC members who participated in this grant request. The grant has been through great refinement and we have learned a lot about the spirit of accountability and gate keeping. You can all rest assured that Donor funds will be handles with the utmost care and respect!!.--Thuvack (talk) 20:26, 11 August 2012 (UTC)