Requests for comment/Rename nah.wikipedia to nci.wikipedia
This is a request for comment on renaming the project site for Wikipedia in Classical Nahuatl. The site Nāhuatl (Nāhuatl) (this name is used in Special:Sitematrix) is considered to currently be named incorrectly, and it is suggested renaming the project to nciwiki, as
nci is the ISO 639-3 code for Classical Nahuatl. Likewise the subdomain should be
nci as this is the correct code, and the content language should be set to
nci. The Interface code can remain as it currently is, as it is already set to
Note that changing the site identifier
nciwiki must most likely wait until phab:T83609 is resolved, although the prefix can be changed before that task is closed.
There is a new attempt to vote over a rename of nahwiki, starting at 2nd February 2019. --18.104.22.168 01:54, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
LangCom response and request for information
@Maor X: for information
This discussion has gotten very off track, personal and inappropriate. This question has been out there for a while, and both LangCom and developers know that something needs to happen. For the developers, there are some other things that they believe are higher priority. For LangCom, we have tried and tried and tried to get information to clarify the situation, and don't get information that is not totally overlaid with emotion and accusation. And we just can't work with that. And to be quite honest: if the people here think that this renaming (or whatever) needs to have a higher priority, you need to answer my questions, because otherwise it's just going to look like a more-or-less geeky coding issue to most people.
To begin, I have two questions that I need responses to: fact-base responses without a lot of emotion and accusation in them.
- Where does the OP get the idea expressed here that there has been some agreement to split these seven languages off and make them into a separate project? Or is the OP saying that people writing in each of these seven languages have split off and made seven separate projects? Because that's what the situation in Incubator looks like to me.
- What is the real content language of the current nahwiki? Is it all nci? Is some of it in any kind of modern language? (And if so, which one[s]?) I'm not looking for a hard statistical analysis at this point, more a general idea.
I do NOT ... repeat NOT ... want to see arguments (right now) for what should happen to the nah domain, or what standard orthography should be used (for anything), or who should be allowed to contribute to any of the projects (this means you, @Marrovi: don't!), or anything about Wiktionary at all. We'll get to those things later, I imagine. I need the answers to those two questions I asked. Without commentary. Just answers. Thank you. For LangCom: StevenJ81 (talk) 17:09, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
|Original version in Spanish|
Le guste a usted o no le guste, yo conozco las lenguas nahuas que se hablan en mi país; soy de las pocas personas que sabe sobre este el náhuatl aquí en Wikipedia porque lo he estudiado por más de 15 años, al final le he demostrado a usted que la ciencia está por encima de envidias, enojos, complots y linchamientos. Y eso se lo debo a que conozco a la élite náhuatl (académicos con alguna lengua materna náhuatl) de mi país porque me han dado el honor de participar e invitarme a sus congresos tanto nacionales como internacionales.
No demérito el trabajo de otras personas que también conocen el idioma, pero se han encajonado más en hacer una guerra que en unir criterios, desprecian mi trabajo porque saben que soy conocedor del tema y por eso tú te aferras a que yo quede fuera de todo proyecto porque no quieres aceptar que conozco el tema sobre las lenguas nahuas. Tu odio hacia mí es personal porque ya no es posible demostrar que yo soy mala persona y que yo soy dañino, mi trabajo habla por si solo y la gente no es tonta para darse cuenta que no soy lo que hacen creer a todo mundo, has llegado a llamarme devil (diablo) , pero no tengo ningún rencor en tu contra, yo no quiero guardar odio en mi corazón y envenenarme. No soy una mala persona como tú piensas, yo amo más a las lenguas náhuatl que lo que tú puedas sentir por ellas sobre su difusión, revitalización y conocimiento.
Soy tan leal y tan cabal, que te comento las cosas de frente, no es mi costumbre actuar a las espaldas de nadie porque mis valores no me permiten, agradezco mucho que me señalas de manera directa, pero no tienes el derecho cerrarme el paso y negarme la libertad de expresión solo porque no te simpatizo, sabiendo que soy conocedor de este tema. Gracias.--Marrovi (talk) 07:39, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
You like it or you don't like it, I know the languages spoken in my country; I am in the few people who know about this Nahuatl here on Wikipedia because he has studied it for more than 15 years, in the end he has told him that science is above envy, anger, plots and lynchings. And that is what I have to tell you with your opinion about my country, since I have had the honor of participating and inviting me to its national and international congresses.
You cannot see the work of other people who also know the language, but they have been more confined in making a war than in joining the dots, they despise my work because they know that I am a connoisseur of the subject and that you are holding on. project because you don't want me to know the subject about Nahuas languages. Your hatred towards me is personal because it is no longer possible to prove I am a bad person and I am harmful, my work speaks for itself and people are not so dumb to realize that I am not what you make everyone believe, He has come to call me Devil (diablo) , but I have no grudge against you, I don't want to keep hate in my heart and poison myself. I am not a bad person as you think, I love you more in the languages that you can feel for them about their diffusion, revitalization and knowledge.
I am so loyal, what is said in front of things, it is not my custom to act on anyone's back, because I do not have the right to close my way and deny freedom of expression just because I do not I sympathize, knowing that I am knowledgeable about this subject. Thank you.--Marrovi (talk) 07:46, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
- Saludos, @Marrovi:
- First, I hold no hatred toward you at all. And I do not support people doing things like calling you "devil". I will go back to that page and redact that description; I'm sorry I missed it.
- I think you were actually referring to me, when I said "The devil is in the details." That was not personal at all. That was using a well-established English idiom. See en:The devil is in the details and wikt:devil is in the details. But my apology for not being sensitive to that cross-culturally. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:51, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
- Second, my point here specifically addressed to you was strictly limited to your comment above, namely: In case they decide that Huiquipedia is of excellent quality or habitual use for people who speak Nahuatl languages as their mother language, the content should be edited only by native speakers or by non-native speakers guided by native speakers. This is often a theme of yours, but it runs against the concept of "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit" (emphasis added). Individual projects have the right to judge whether people contributing are writing in the correct language; we do not set central rules about that.
- Finally, I beg you: Please do not write vast walls of discussion. People ignore them, they get frustrated with you, and your point gets lost. Stick to 1-2 sentence responses—for your own sake. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:41, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
- Answer 1
The reason is taken from the linguistic classification made by Ethnologue, each Nahuan language is assigned a code such as nci, nhn, nch, nch, azd, azn or nhv. The level of intellegibility is varied between one Nahua language and another Nahua language, Huasteca Nahuatl is not the same to Classical Nahuatl or Northem Puebla Nahuatl is not the same to Tabasco Nahuatl; no same syntax, no word correspondence or no standardized spelling, each Nahuatl language has its own peculiarities. Have got another classification of Nahuan languages by INALI in Mexico.
- Answer 2
Classical Nahuatl has been assigned to be the best known Nahuatl language in the world, although it's a dead language, it is a language that remains in force within science, it is a comparative similar to Latin, Old Greek or Classical Chinese. Ethnologue has assigned the nci code identify to the Classical Nahuatl.
Currently the Wikipedia nah , is using the writing of Classical Nahuatl for the simple reason that there are many documents printed with the spelling of Classical Nahuatl, so the editions are made with that spelling; The writing of most texts is not a modern Nahuatl language, it has been an interpretation of Classical Nahuatl, so it is advised to change the code to NCI. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marrovi (talk) 16:46, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you. But your "Answer 1" doesn't really answer me. I understand your answer (and have for years; you have educated me thoroughly on this). I was trying to understand if the original poster above (22.214.171.124) was suggesting a unified project for some or all of these languages. I know what you think of this; I was trying to understand whether that user was suggesting that there was an effort toward a unified project.
- As to "Answer 2", thank you. My follow-up question to that is as follows:
- Is each of the individual Nahua languages widely used in writing? Or is writing in Classical Nahuatl common in different communities, even while the spoken forms vary?
- Please answer in brief. I don't need a whole explanation here. I just need an answer. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:00, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
- The Huiquipedia Mainpage (nah) was written by Mestizo Mexicans who have a low domain in Classical Nahuatl (Akapochtli and Cuaitl are only the users who know the domain of Classic Nahuatl), Huiquipedia Mainpage has got many invented words. The communities where live Nahuan languages are spoken don't use the writing of Classical Nahuatl, each living Nahuatl language uses its own alphabet, there are many reasons why native speakers do not accept the Classical Nahuatl writing, one reason is that Classical Nahuatl writing there is Spanish language phonetics, it's an archaic writing and has got a strong relationship with colonialism; living Nahuatl languages have evolution and do not correspond identically to Classical Nahuatl syntax, for example; Old Castilian vs. modern Spanish, Argentine Spanish, Ladino, Mexican Spanish or Chavacano (Filipino Spanish).
- Classical Nahuatl is only spoken by academics, researchers, archaeologists, students who are interested in the Aztec culture or the Spanish colonial period. Classical Nahuatl is a revitalized dead language for educational purposes for to try to understand the history. Speakers of the Nahuan living languages do not understand Classical Nahuatl, many Nahua-speakers use their language orally and few Nahua-speakers write in any modern Nahuatl language.--Marrovi (talk) 05:23, 25 July 2019 (UTC)