User talk:Fabartus/Archives

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Updated: // FrankB 22:52, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WikiMedia Talk Page[edit]

Welcome to Meta![edit]

Hello Fabartus, and welcome to the Wikimedia Meta-Wiki! This website is for coordinating and discussing all Wikimedia projects. You may find it useful to read our policy page. If you are interested in doing translations, visit Meta:Babylon. You can also leave a note on Meta:Babel (please read the instructions at the top of the page before posting there). If you would like, feel free to ask me questions on my talk page. Happy editing!

Bonjour Fabartus, et bienvenue sur le Meta-Wiki de Wikimédia ! Ce site a pour but de coordonner et discuter de l’ensemble des projets Wikimédia. Il vous sera utile de consulter notre page sur les règles de Wikimédia. Si vous êtes intéressé par des projets de traduction, visitez Meta:Babylon. Vous pouvez aussi laisser un message sur Meta:Babel (mais veuillez d’abord lire les instructions en haut de cette page avant d’y poster votre message). Si vous le voulez, vous pouvez me poser vos questions sur ma page de discussion. À bientôt !

Olá Fabartus! Seja bem-vindo ao Meta! Este site/sítio é dedicado à discussão e à coordenação de todos os demais projetos da Fundação Wikimedia. Talvez lhe seja útil ler a página contendo a nossa política (em inglês) antes de começar a editar. Se tiver dúvidas, sinta-se à vontade para me fazer perguntas em minha página de discussão, ou deixe uma mensagem para toda a comunidade na Babel, a versão do Meta da Esplanada. Boa sorte!

Hola Fabartus! Bienvenido a la Meta-Wiki de la Fundación Wikimedia! Este sitio es para coordinar y discutir todos los proyectos de la Fundación Wikimedia. Tal vez sea útil leer nuestra página de politicas (en inglés). Se vos interessan las traducciones, visita Meta:Babylon. Usted puede también dejar un mensaje en Meta:Babel (pero antes de hacerlo, por favor lea las instrucciones situadas en lo alto de la página). No dudes en preguntar se tiene cualquiera duda, o pregunta en mi página de discusión. Buena suerte!

Ciao Fabartus! Benvenuto sulla Meta-Wiki della Wikimedia Foundation! Questo sito serve a coordinare e discutere di tutti i progetti della Wikimedia Foundation. Potrebbe esserti utile leggere le nostre policy (in inglese). Se sei interessato a fare traduzioni, visita Meta:Babylon. Puoi anche lasciare un messaggio su Meta:Babel (ma per favore, leggi le istruzioni che si trovano all'inizio della pagina prima di scrivere). Se vuoi, puoi lasciarmi un messagio nella mia pagina di discussione. Buona fortuna!

Здравствуйте, Fabartus, и добро пожаловать на Meta-Wiki Фонда Викимедиа! Этот сайт предназначен для координации и обсуждения вопросов, связанных со всеми проектами фонда. Для начала Вы можете ознакомиться с нашими правилами. Если Вы заинтересованы в работе над переводами, посетите Meta:Babylon. Вы также можете обсудить различные вопросы на странице Meta:Babel (пожалуйста, ознакомьтесь с инструкцией сверху, прежде чем писать). Если возникнут вопросы, не бойтесь задавать их мне на моей странице обсуждения. Удачи!

Hola {subst:{PAGENAME}}! Benvingut a la Meta-Wiki de la Fundació Wikimedia! Aquest lloc està fet per a coordinar i discutir tots els projectes de la Fundació Wikimedia. Potser us serà útil llegir la nostra pàgina de polítiques (en anglès). Si us interessen les traduccions, visiteu Meta:Babylon. També podeu deixar un missatge a Meta:Babel (però abans de fer-ho, llegiu les instruccions situades al principi de la pàgina). No dubteu en preguntar si teniu qualsevol dubte. Si cal ho podeu fer en la meva pàgina de discussió. Bona sort!

Fabartus, 你好!歡迎光臨維基媒體元維基!這個網站是為協調和討論所有維基媒體項目而設。我們的政策頁可能對您有用。如果您有興趣協助翻譯工作, 請參觀Meta:Babylon。你可在 Meta:Babel 留下口訊 (張貼之前請先讀該頁上指示)。若有問題, 請在我的討論頁問我 。祝

Administrative and Quick Links
Quick Links People's Talk pages
QRef ,

CSout, CS_in, Tmp, CnF,

BDAn, Fr2k, HCam, HTHp, JYwl , CdrK, MelE, MgM_ , MsSa, Nicp, Petr, PegS, Pitr, RnCr, Shrl, Sjkl, SlVn, TTel, ToSi, Valn, WHKy, WWds, Quid
FrankB says:    Hi there, and WELCOME!


Hi! Either email me, that a note is here, or visit me at w:user talk:fabartus or Click Here to bottom post my talk at (and annotate it's a WikiMedia sourced talk!.

I prefer the email, as the window is always open, and I get an audible alert!

Use: and translate for the 'at' symbol (defeats web crawlers and spammer spiders).

Best to include 'Wikipedia' in the body or title for initial contacts! (I might otherwise delete a 'stranger message' as spam).

I'll add you to the filter permissions list after that.

Thank you and best regards, FrankB 16:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sig Problems[edit]

User:fabartus/sigtests {{w2}},{{w}}


Can you explain what this is, why it is a template, and why it is now on Meta? - Amgine / m | n 14:47, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's a reference to temporarily include into a edit-preview window when one needs a code such as {the set:{,..., }, etc.}

   It's being ported to all Sisterprojects to 'equalize' in an interwiki way, 'useful tools' that have been developed here and on en.wp with their vast corps of experienced template programmers and widespread use of same. It's part of providing productivity enhancing commonality between the lesser manned--narrower focused--newer English wikiprojects for
   A) Their editors, who may not concieve of many of such tools being available, and who are unfamiliar with WP cats to find such and
   B) an concurrent upgrade of usage to make such tools more user friendly, to the benefit of the newer members editing whereever, and
   C) The convienience of editor's who mainly work on en.wp or here who visit and do the occasional task on one of the other sister's... enhancing their productivity by making sure they have familiar tools, and a link path to find more about the local sister through some common categories. Not ambitious, just plebian plodding common sense. Cheers! // FrankB 17:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC) (Xnote 'see Ans here' to Amgine }[reply]

Had a detailed Answer in back edit stack when hit snag. Bide a moment, I'm Sorry for the delay. Why is 'ASCII' missing (now redlinked) sans further discussion? // FrankB 17:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I would really appreciate if you could explain what you are doing, and why you are using a tmp template in so many other templates which are already in use. - Amgine / m | n 17:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • My, your a bit impatient! Thanks for the edit conflict B4 I answered! // FrankB 17:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Interwikitmp-grps see also is broken, but is included in Template:Interwikitmp-grp and Template:WikiPtmp which in turn are included in many other and pages:

Current list[edit]

Since this user's been banned,
I'm going to revise and extend this list into a alphabetized tabulation table going forward. // FrankB 15:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pending move of list to a project page:

  1. those marked 'former' are dead-ends, now cleaned up and deleted

(pardon the repeated entries)


It appears to me this is an excessively complex set of templates which are completely unmaintainable by Meta or any project other than en. Please do not use them here on Meta until/unless you get community buy-in, and please do talk with the Communications Committee regarding this effort. - Amgine / m | n 17:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • What's to maintain... these are for the most part very stable tools, save only they're being morphed to be identical on all sister's, and yes, the master copys should be maintained on Wikipedia, where many are already protected and the manpower is available to impliment changes and updates when needed. The XXXXtmp files are being changed now to link to the pertinent [W: ] pages, so one and all can talk, ask, comment, or such for help, changes, et. al thereon.
       I'll check your communications committee out, whatever they are, but this seems a logical and needed set of compatible features with many benefits... assuming I can get exception handling to work properly... which ain't happening whilst I talk. (e.g. Commons: or Wiktionary: prefixed strings don't work on their own SITES. That's the current effort plus changes to allow smaller sisterprojects boxes and less 'space in the face' when viewing one, then a pass two or three to update any needed. Any thing tagged '!' cat you found directly supports the interlinking... others are just tools that is the target to disseminate. // FrankB 17:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you cannot see what you are doing as a process...
They must not be maintained on en.wp. In fact, there has already been on cross-project war regarding the sisters projects used by en.wp because they do not use each project's chosen slogans (see: Slogans).
The Communications Committee is set up to address getting what you're doing implemented across projects. They can certainly be helpful to your efforts. I would suggest, however, that being bold on communities' main pages will result immediately in a backlash of opposition. - Amgine / m | n 18:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the advice, my almost finished comment is and will be to refer them to this exchange and see what they have for concerns. I'm interested in productivity and the WMF to start respecting the time of volunteers more, and better overall. This is a step in that direction. Wasting volunteer's time is unconsciounable to me, and the foundation letting every English wiki go there own way is pretty short sighted for many reasons.
Or are you suggesting there are committee memebers who have a selfish axe to grind that don't like good faith efforts, nor productivity from volunteers? Empire builders with disdain for other's contributions in good faith! Surely not! <g>
   Perish the thought! Politics on wiki's, simply shocking! <g> // FrankB 18:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Stuff on wikispecies[edit]

I am assuming that there is some method to your madness. Could you explain what the end result of all the work you are doing should be? It looks a little messy right now. Also, wikispecies behaves a little differently than some of the other projects (goodness only knows why). If you could leave a note at wikispecies:User talk:Open2universe I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Answer per request there. // User:Fabartus 05:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I plan to mark a large collection of unused/incomplete/broken template efforts for deletion shortly. I noticed you have still neither explained what you're doing with this collection templates or completed them, and you've also begun moving them out to other english language projects which have clearly not found a need to develop them on their own.

Is there any chance you will explain this system in the short run? - Amgine / m | n 05:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In a word, yes— see {{Interwikitmp-grpNN usage}}, if the recursion bugs you see {{Interwikitmp-grp}} instead. That's just illustratitive of some of what I had to fight through to figure out what happened. The upshot was I had to split one do-it-all template into multiple do some of it versions. I believe one of your original concerns was complexity. Not much left. Hell, even the documentation is in multiple revision status! The first go on it helped define the '2a' pass needs.
Apparently, however, you are of the opinion that one can 'code Rome in a day'. I started out before the weekend before last week at your behest to revise this system beyond the test stage into an deployable robust system. Frankly, I resent your inuendo's and threats. I've done little since, save get ready to air this with the communications committee per your request. I saw your note this morning circa 8:30, and among other things, edited so much in so many places that my browser forgot the first almost finished draft I had written to you then. It is now my 2:00 am the next morning. SO TAKE THE HINT... YOU'RE WAY OUT OF LINE. Many of us also have families and jobs. Occasionally we even sleep.
I have been so much into getting this back together (you initially contacted me at a departure point in design approach which needed carried through, and since then most everything has been effectively rewritten since shortly before to now, in what I call pass '2', 2a,... and now pass 2c—yes, four versions of significant enough difference to be given status names.)
This has been a huge man-hour-intensive effort including blowing off all other work today, and editing right through the night several times sans sleep, and a marathon over the preceding holiday weekend. I did take a wikibreak over this past weekend... too exhausted, so sue me.
Since we chatted, the system has been refined and debugged, and now mostly documented, including getting feedback from some coding savants. And yes, there are a lot of pieces of the early Pass 1 stuff here and there which have bad links. I haven't bothered to update the XXXXtmp files in most SITES whilst upgrading the real keys to the system. Those are all on Wikipedia. I did place some other new key pages around today whilst trying to work back to this (lost) message. Mostly, I had to narrow the problems to one locale save for occasional validation exports to the other sister's. Oh, btw, I've been working all ten to one degree or the other since the first go round. Not placing stuff out there recently. You're three weeks off.
In short order, saving perhaps on Wikinews, the graphics will evolve to look like the newer templates in the system (W:template:Interwikitmp-grp, note the Wikibooks still is of the old form. The XXXXtmp template logic has been a concern, and that's the last remaining old style version). There are some things in place now that will let me selectively shrink the templates to try out the best combinations of pictures and overall width. Bigger is not always better. But then you can see that with the few templates on Wikinews. That mess will probably need some outside talent with script knowledge to figure out what is happening.
Your home site has got such a different common.css page, that I'm not sure what can be done there, but frankly, it is the least likely to need or benefit from the tools we're porting. I doubt if you all do much if anything with either categories or templates, but it would have been rude to make that assumption. Your 'which have clearly not found a need to develop them on their own' (above) assumes there are people knowledgable enough to know what they might do, on the one hand, and who have the time and inclination to try it on the other, whereas most of the tech heavys congregate on the wikipedias. Even the commons is backwards comparatively—very poor on tools common on wikipedia and here.
You may not have much use on Wikinews for sophisticated multilink templates like {{Lcs}} or {{Lts}}, but there are quite a few sites that will, and that's just a drop in the toolbox that will make things easier on those sister's from the the bounty of Meta and Wikipedia's man-years of experience developing such. Do try to be patient. It's coming along well, and coming together better. Best regards, // FrankB 06:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Two problems:
  1. Implementation before meeting spec.
  2. Solution to non-existant problem.
Please consider that your solution to something the Communications Committee does see as an issue needs to be simple to implement, should work across languages and projects (and thus not require extensive interventions on any of these diverse sites, especially as regards CSS since some have had extensive revisions to the mono skins), and be easily maintainable.
I'm sincerely trying not to be combative. Please consider that you're not exporting a Wikipedia template system. Instead consider that you are designing a single template likely to be used on over 600 wikis in more than 200 languages. Please build such a system here on Meta, test it until it meets the necessary minimums, then we can disseminate it to other languages and projects.
- Amgine / m | n 16:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't the faintest clue as to why I should care about anything but the nine English language sister's. That's where most of us work, that's where the problem evinced. Presumably, there are plenty of bright people involved in those other languages that can improvise, adapt, and overcome, or whatever.
Secondarily, because you see no value in it doesn't mean there is no benefit to it. If there wasn't some problem, I wouldn't have bothered. My plates are very full.
At the moment I haven' time to export anything. I'm not even free to check email right now. Cheers. // FrankB 04:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fixing broken redirects and so on[edit]

Hi. May I lead your attention to this discussion, please? Thank you, --Thogo (talk) 15:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Meta:Requests for deletion#Link_templates[edit]

Your approach in this discussion is in serious need of modification. Please assume good faith and do not attack other editors as you did Pathoschild. Thank you. ++Lar: t/c 05:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sorry youngster, but the fact is Pathoschild is hounding me across multiple wiki's and attacking nearly five MONTHS of my work, despite loosing several of votes on other sister sites, totally misrepresenting facts and so forth. Time after time I've had to stay up late (or totally skip sleeping one night) and defend a project which hasn't even been fully formed nor even annnounced because of her prejudices against templates.
  • I doubt seriously that she also was so upset that she tossed and turned grinding and gnashing her teeth as I did so as to wake with an aching jaw all of Fri-Sat night until finally falling into an unrestful sleep somewhere about five in the morning. Then repeated that again the next night, and even this last one am still fuming, but at least managed to fall off after an hour or so. ANGER doesn't begin to express it, and as someone in their fifties, I can't afford that kind of impact on my health. It'd be different if I were a student like you.
  • One of the key things behind my TSP effort is the firm belief that all the wiki's have to stablize--that we're canibalistic, that we spend far too much time wasting a lot of people's time because busy-bodies nomeniate useful tools and disrespect or don't understand that each human has their own ways of relating to the world, own needs to mentally organized, and that others use of such tools should be tolerated even if we don't use them ourselves. She claims the link templates are "over complicated"... how complicated is it to deduce the use of a template if one can see the link result in the text? Duhhhhh!
  • Five months of free time may seem like nothing at your age, but TIME IS THE ONLY CAPITAL people have and can give -- it's a very limited resource. Very very valuable. She's totally disrespecting mine, and either being dishonest (Templates written here or on the commons attributed to wikipedia, templates on a totally different topic, lumped in with TSP issues, which wasn't the topic at all on the commons village pump. I can go on and on...) or IS a total fuck up. And you want 'me' to turn the other cheek so she can shove yet another stick up my ass? I'm being abused here -- these templates aren't costing her anything whatever by existing on Seven thousand sites, nor do they cost the foundation much, if anything. A few kilobytes each of storage, most of them. The way the foundation keeps old records (history), the storage space is so trivial to be a total joke, and that's the only cost, until someone decides to shit on another's time like she's shitting on me.
  • Linking things so people can find them--where's the F***ing harm?
  • Writing documentation (A loathsome and tedious task! Boring at best!) so lay people can be empowered and use such is all a cost to US, as volunteer editors.
  • Ditto the desire of putting together a manual. This helps people use their time more efficently and effectively for the benefit of the foundation, aids retention of people, etc. -- if she's a steward (And 'THAT' scares the HELL out of me) she ought to be aiding and abetting these goals with every ounce of strength--not hounding someone mercilessly across four or five sister projects.
  • If a template is unused, it's one thing, but she belongs to a camp founded on ignorance of the realities of string processing and believes templates are bad--because she's too damn lazy to look one up if it's unfamiliar. So she thinks wikilinks (which are costly to people! Volunteers at that!) of sixty plus characters are best. Sorry-- that's disrespectful of MY TIME when a computer macro (template) can do the work in a few nanoseconds my big fat clumsy fingers shouldn't have do type the same thing over and over--when computers are real good at copying strings. Bottom line, I've never been comfortable with the exploitive attitudes of the foundation towards volunteers times, I've even traded a few emails with Jimbo on the topic.
  • Yet we still have institutions which tolerate a few "Tuned In" people who happen to be a clique, or butt kissers who can totally discard the HOURS OF WORK and SACRAFICE (in many cases) people put in without A) having the respect of a mandantory email notification that something is up for deletion and B) having a quorum requirement in such decisions, and C) having a reasonable minimum consensus level requirement before deleting such efforts.
  • If this sort of elitest ignorance is tolerable to you, may God bless -- but stay clear of me. I'll have nothing to do with a mentality that burns books, and blocks dissemination of information--worse, it's directly contrary to the mission of the foundation. And I certainly won't stand still for people abusing MY TIME! Hope that helps! // FrankB 14:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see you posted this at my talk and here as well. Please pick one or the other place to hold this discussion, there is no need for your long posts to be duplicated. If you want to discuss on my talk page that's fine with me. As I said there, you are laboring under a large number of incorrect assumptions. Pathoschild is a male, and is a whiz at writing templates with a deep knowledge of how the software works, for starters, so you're definitely barking up the wrong tree there. Worse, though, I think many would find your approach disruptive and if you do not moderate your words you will soon find yourself blocked here. I am flattered (at 48) that you call me youngster, though. ++Lar: t/c 00:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the mistaken ID--confused you with commons:user:Lx, I suspect, who was at one time when we interfaced about to travel home from studies in the USA at where-ever to "home" in Scandinavia (Sweden IIRC).
Double posting is I think a more courteous mode, and certainly far less rude and inoffensive than the "old wiki warriors" mode of expecting people to check over and over for a response. Keeping a conversation thread in one place is fine, so long as people don't assume their pages are being watched and at least PING that a message is "ready"--that's what the banner alert is for, after all, a notification. Many old hands seem to think a moments time to drop a link back is too much effort, a stance many of us dislike and think rude and arrogant. Hence double posting threads is something more and more of us are doing, at least on Wikipedia. At least I'm not too belligerent about it. Consider the unmoving "Notices" elements: here for example.
As far as my approach is concerned, I'm very close to leaving any and all Wikimedia Foundation projects given the hounding TSP is given by a few who won't even let us get it together enough to even formally announce it, and recruit help. All the wiki environments are borderline hostile at the best of times with all the time demands that "The System of Doing Things Collaboratively" expect (Watchlists, narrow minded posts, lacks of notification, and so on) of people with a full and busy life. That may work fine with independently wealthy, the students without families, and employees who can safely steal time from their employers as they're academics or Government employees, but its intolerably short-sighted when it comes to retaining people who have time consuming real jobs, a business they own, and families to feed. Goes a long way towards explaining why even many academics dabble for a few weeks or a month then leave the projects in frustration.
Best regards, but souring someone as enthusiastic as I seems to be inevitable the way the board tolerates certain practices. Cheers! // FrankB 17:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC) (Ping notification to [[User talk:Lar])[reply]