Grants talk:PEG/WM UA/Free Vocal Music concert

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GAC members who have read this request but had no comments[edit]

  1. --Ilario (talk) 21:13, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
  2. --Itzike (talk) 21:51, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
  3. --MikyM (talk) 22:02, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
  4. --3BRBS (talk) 03:41, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
  5. -- Roel (talk) 04:30, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
  6. -- Thuvack (talk) 08:59, 12 May 2013 (UTC). Questions I would have had, have already been answered.
  7. --Packa (talk) 11:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

GAC members who have read the request and are currently studying the proposal[edit]

  1. . NLIGuy (talk) 21:32, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

GAC members who have read, studied and concluded their assessment (of) the proposal[edit]

  1. I have no more comments regarding this request. Participation from more GAC members with more opinions on this one would be appreciated.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:34, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
  2. Decent grant request, seems ok to me however more opinions of GAC members on this one would be appreciated.--Mayur (talkEmail) 06:11, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
  3. I find this to be an interesting project which should be supported. notafish }<';> 19:33, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
  4. I think this is worth supporting. I would also like to ask the grant's proponents to take a look at the proposal for a Wikikultur project. --Solstag (talk) 20:06, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

GAC members who abstain from comment/vote[edit]

  1. .

Comments[edit]

Hello! It seems this project has both a good scope and quite a well thought-out plan. My only question is about the purchase of audio equipment. Could you maybe give us an idea of how you intend to use this further/put at people's disposal within the Ukrainian Wikimedia communities? Best regards, notafish }<';> 14:08, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

The equipment will be taken by the person responsible for the event, or the person who will be asked to produce the recording. Such event have to be announced in Wikimedia Ukraine site and/or Wikipedia page. --A1 (talk) 20:54, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
Maybe A1's answer was unclear, 'cause he did not mention free music projects ongoing in Ukrainian wiki community. There are two such projects - World music classic in Ukrainian (English version of the page is rather poor and introductory sketch), led by A1, and Collaboration with Lviv music academy, led by Yuri Bulka. There is a short English presentation of these projects at the end of Milan conference presentation of WM UA .14 pieces by M. Lysenko were already performed and recorded under free license by Lviv music academy students within Collaboration with Lviv music academy project. World music classic in Ukrainian has one translation by Maksym Striha already published both on wikisource and on paper and performed (although performed not under free license) - Sokil, which had media coverage that possibly made this grant's concert possible, a book (388 pages) of translations by Yuri Otroshenko already has OTRS permission and putting it on wikisource is underway and performance of some of these translations by Hanna Kolesnik are published under free license (see the singer article), also there is permission to publish more translations by Maksym Striha. So I think there can be a lot of work to do with the equipment. The only question that concerns me, is why I found on commons only 1 piece performed back in 2000 by A1 himself and his numerous musician friends? Maybe good answer to this question could clear final objections. --Ilya (talk) 05:37, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
That`s a funny question :)) And I`m pretty surprised you did not ask this question to A1 directly in his user page :))) The answer is simple - because there is no recordings made by A1 in Commons more. To prepare audio-recordings by A1 and his "numerous musician friends" an appropriate equipment is needed.
Looking ahead I could assure that it`s not difficult to organise a set of free music concerts (both vocal and instrumental music) if we would have an equipment and an experience of our first vocal concert. There are at least 3 organisations with concert organising experience featuring "A1`s friends" among our partners - Lviv music academy, Master class educational centre (features "Classics on Fridays programm") and Kiev University (featuring choir Dnipro). Also I`m planning to initiate collaboration with Kiev_Conservatory and possibly Kyiv national culture and art University. Having an appropriate equipment in Kiev we could manage the same as Yuri Bulka (mentioned above) did in Lviv. --A1 (talk) 10:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Some questions and suggestions[edit]

Thanks for the submission. I find the idea pretty innovative and interesting, but there are some questions that appear to be relevant to me:

  1. What is the tracklist of songs that are going to be recorded? What are the people that will perform these songs? Have the performers already agreed to participate under the conditions you can offer to them? How do you plan to compensate them for their work?
    Planned tracklist - in Ukrainian, table's first four column names are composer, composition, voice type and performer (with wiki-link to Ukrainian wikipedia). The performers are also described in English under Resource section of this grant submission. A1, the project lead, mentioned that they will perform on volunteer basis. --Ilya (talk) 17:01, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
    Btw, the tracks are in Ukrainian, translated from other languages. So, we need permissions from authors of original works, translator and performers if you want upload them to Commons. Permission from translator was given (OTRS ticket no. 2013031210010276), but permission from original authors are not given. Some of original songs are not free. For example, composer Raimonds Pauls is living now, and poet Ivan Bunin died in 1953 (60 years ago, 60<70 ⇒ not in PD), so these songs are not in PD and unfree. And translation of them are also unfree as DW, and performance of these songs will be unfree too, and cannot be uploaded to Commons without permission of authors of original songs. Permissions from performers was not given yet.--Anatoliy (talk) 19:55, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
    yeah, everybody's aware of that. it was NickK that pointed this out before. thus two positions (marked with *) are not going to be uploaded to commons under a free license (though we probably are to record them anyway, as they can be uploaded later). and i wrote a letter to Raimonds Pauls asking his permission. i do doubt that he will allow it though, but trying would not do any harm here, i believe ;) as for the permission from the performers - they are to give it at the concert. we would have the papers ready and printed out beforehand --アンタナナ 06:55, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
  2. Do you really need to buy the equipment to record the music? How about to borrow it if you don't have any plans on how to put it on further disposal? Here, I'd like to highlight Deplhine's question above and suggest that borrowing instead of purchasing might be an alternative solution. Also, don't forget that whenever money is requested to purchase equipment the ownership-issue is always in fashion, which in most of the cases has been an obstacle to support the distribution of funds for this purpose.
    If this point will be denied, of course we could borrow it. The reason to buy it is to use it many times. --A1 (talk) 21:12, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
    I answered about plans higher on this page. About borrowing or using existing equipment - borrowing can be not an easy effort, and it can be better to have well-known, available and accessible, good quality, matching together equipment and accessories. I have listened to commons:Category:Audio_files_of_music_by_Mykola_Lysenko and while quality is good, I strongly hope (basing on listening to other recordings, including by equipment we ask) it can be significantly better. Maybe just hoping is not enough justification, and A1 can answer which options do we have to try to borrow and evaluate? I also would ask if renting a better class equipment for specific events can be a better option than using existing or trying to borrow or buying some that is class lower? --Ilya (talk) 05:56, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
  3. Can you tell us more about the number of people who will attend the concert? Do you plan an event which will be free to attend or there will be any entrance ticket price specified? If the latter holds, what will be the party that will earn the revenue from the tickets sold?
    The event will be free. We don`t sale any tickets. It is impossible to say what number of people will attend just now, but we will have such statistics after the event. --A1 (talk) 21:32, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
  4. Can you explain the measures of success in more details? What is the realistic number of video and audio files that will be recorded? What will be their average length?
    According to the program it is planned to record and upload 16 pieces with total duration about an hour. More important will be number of poets / musicians who will prepare or allow to publish their works under free license in future. Though this number is difficult to calculate, at least this could not be done after the concert immediately. --A1 (talk) 21:12, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
    Well, this concert you called as World Classic in Ukrainian («Світова класика українською»), and in planned tracklist there are the works of world famous composers, e.g. Schuber, Rakhmaminov, Verdi, Chaykovski, van Beethoven. But what I can see in concert programme? Two thirds of songs are world classic of famous composers, but other songs are with music written by WM-UA Deputy Chairman Andriy Bondarenko (aka A1) or lyrics written by the wife of WM-UA Executive Director Tetiana Cherep (Тетяна Череп) and not world classic. I see conflict of interests here.--Anatoliy (talk) 12:43, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
    Unfortunately, personal attacks is a regular communication style of user Ahonc [1] --Yakudza (talk) 10:16, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
    You use argumentum ad hominem, but we discuss grant here, not me.--Anatoliy (talk) 10:26, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
    The name of the grant is called «the Free Vocal Music concert» and to the best of my knowledge Tetiana Cherep-Perohanych is only contemporary living Ukrainian poet, who issue lyrics on free licenses. It will not create any problem for Tetiana if the songs using her lyrics are not performed on the concert. But the main goal of the concert is to stimulate contemporary poets, lyrics translators and composers to issue their work under free licenses and to show them a good example. --Perohanych (talk) 06:52, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
    In the text of grant I read To organize a concert of free vocal music within the project "World classic in Ukrainian" aimed to popularize free Ukrainian translations of vocal music as well as the free-licensed music., from this I understand that that the concert is part of World classic program. Well, If I am wrong and concert should not include only classical composers, and not problem with Cherep's songs as you say, why Cherep's songs was removed from the the program after my comment and that version was deleted and hid from the chapter website? If organizers agree with me about conflict of interests and deleted Cherep's songs from program, it is good, but why the first version was deleted from website? Organizers hide something from donors? If not, please restore that revision.--Anatoliy (talk) 09:41, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
    Organizers have nothing to hide from the public. I do not know the reason why the mentioned edit was deleted, and I do not see any reasons to delete Cherep's songs from the program. The grant request was approved by the WMUA Board. The project was discussed at the WMUA website. It is obvious for me that user Ahonc, as a member of the Wikimedia Ukraine seriously violated ethics rules by filing a complaint against the decision of the Board, without first discussing the matter internally within the WMUA. --Perohanych (talk) 10:35, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
    Where do you see complaints? There is discussion here. And when should I discuss internal? The programme with songs of contemporary poets and composers was published only two days ago, and it was after this grant request was published.
    And that discussion was only about Otroshenko's translations. Songs by Bondarenko, Cherep and others contemporary poets and composers was not mentioned there. And including of this songs was not publicly discussed (if it was, show me where).--Anatoliy (talk) 14:21, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
    The usefulness and feasibility of the concert with free vocal works performed was publicly discussed. But compiling a program, inviting artists — needs professional knowledge. The person who is responsible for the program of the concert and for inviting the artists is Andriy Bondarenko, who is not only Deputy Head of the WMUA Board, but also a professional piano player and a notable composer. --Perohanych (talk) 16:40, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
    Concert is not called as "World Classic in Ukrainian" and only one piece written by Andriy Bondarenko. Please contact organisers for further details before misinforming. --A1 (talk) 19:07, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
    Concert is a part of project 'Word classic in Ukrainian' as stated in grant page. Well, why should I contact organizers privately? This information should be available open: who is authors of music, lyrics and who is performers of every song. And make it in understandable format. Because from link, which you've provided, I understood that songs 14-16 will be performed by Bondarenko.--Anatoliy (talk) 19:30, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
    Cherep's songs will not be deleted as well as any other contemporary music, because I don`t see any reason for Ahonc or somebody else to be interested in their deletion. --A1 (talk) 13:07, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Best regards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:08, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Well - IMHO even if some recordings are a bit out of scope of the idea - if the majority of recordings are about to be real Ukrainian and World classic - I can accept them as an extra value of the project. As Bondarenko is recognized contemporary Ukrainian composer I can't see any problems with recording his music as a part of the project. If it would be only recordings of his works I could say that there is a kind of conflict of interest with his function in WM UKr board... Polimerek (talk) 13:28, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I second Polimerek here. However, I would like WMUA to learn from this discussion, that the conflict of interest, or even the seeming conflict of interest (I think it's debatable), should have been managed better, i.e. stated clearly and up front. That would have made us all feel much more comfortable recognizing the value of the proposal. I thank User:Ahonc for drawing our attention to this. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:41, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

A remark[edit]

Dear GAC members! The wiki-concert is planned on May, 15, so we would be happy to know any GAC decision at least a day in advance. Thank you! --Perohanych (talk) 21:52, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear Perohanych, only Asaf (,precisely the WMF staff team who take care about WMF small grant program,) have the ability to make decisions about this request. The opinions and views of the Committee serve to hem/them to help in decision-making process, but they are not binding. I hope they will see your message asap, but to be sure in it I suggest you to send email to grants_AT_wikimedia.org with the same note. Best, --MikyM (talk) 04:47, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Comments and questions[edit]

I was asked to comment. I really should disclose that as a (former) career classical musician I have very fixed views, so perhaps they should be discounted in some ways. I've google translated the full page on the project that was linked, and from that the ?scientific article by Ghanzburh. Concerning that article, it's not easy to work out whether he's being equivocal about the advantages of singing translated linguistic texts, or simply of singing in the original language intended by the composer while the audience follows (if they wish) a phrase-by-phrase translation.

Most of the world happily listens to pop music in English. It is now the norm to sing operas in their original language, whether Italian or German or French (or Russian, indeed), rather than translating them, say, into English if performed in an anglophone city. I note that the English National Opera was built, in the early 20th century, on the principle that English translations are the way to popularise opera among a public that might quail before the sounds of a foreign libretto bouncing about the chamber acoustics; but many people are skeptical of the ENO's philosophy: apart from anything else, it's very hard for opera audiences to directly follow singers' diction in the acoustics of an opera theatre—even when sitting fairly close, or listening to a clear recording (depends a little on the historical style and the engineering effort, I suppose). The same is true of many musical situations. And as Ghanzburh points out, when you sing a translation you lose the specific placement of the semantics, often the specific meanings, and the phonological connection with the flow of the music.

Personally, I would always prefer to follow side-by-side translations in program notes (or in surtitles at the opera, where possible. So if I'm understanding the project correctly, I must say that I'd prefer the resources to be put into producing good program notes in Ukrainian—including side-by-side translations of the original libretto into Ukrainian—to accompany existing live and recorded performances in the original language. The opera Le faucon, by Ukrainian-turned-Russian composer Bortniansky, was meant to be sung in French, I guess. The en.WP article on the composer (which is a little puffy and under-referenced) claims that he was quite influential in Ukraine during the early classico-romantic period (a difficult period technically in which to be composing—especially church music); and that Tschaikovsky was interested in his music (something to boast about, at least). But I'd not heard of him.

So, aside from my unease with the presumption that there is some inherent advantage to hearing classical music (indeed music of any style) actually sung in one's native language, while sacrificing the intended beauty of the original:

  1. The Wikisource upload features piano ("short") scores rather than full orchestral scores. How do you intend to perform the music?
  2. Who will do the audio-engineering for the recordings? Could we have the specs (file form, quality, etc)? I see mention of video ... will this be done professionally?
  3. What are the acoustics like in the room? If the recording is to be at a public concert, how will the presence of the audience affect the acoustics? Will the music be clear in audio terms? And of course will the listeners be able to make out a single word?
  4. Is the intention to "republish" the entire scores of the music performed? If so, what application will be used to do this in? It's a major job. Who is the original publisher, and can their output be trusted editorially? Is a scholar at hand to consult, review?
  5. Since much of the music planned is centuries old, my personal prejudice is against performing it on modern instruments. This is particularly the case for baroque music by composers such as Bach and Pergolesi ... nowadays, the classical style (1760–1830 or thereabouts) is quite often played on period instruments, with good reason in my view. You're on safer ground with the later composers mentioned at the "number of works" link, though. But again, how much of this repertory involves orchestras, and how much just piano accompaniment? That vital information is missing from the table.
  6. I haven't an idea about the quality of the performers. That they're soloists of the UA national opera is promising, but this would be a very different context for them (if anything, quite exposing). Any audio recordings as examples?

Sorry for the long rant. I'm right on-side with the "popularisation of free licenses". But it seems to be a very complex undertaking.

On the other hand, US$973 is tiny if this is conceived as an experiment (the Foundation Board is very keen that there be explicit "lessons learned" after funded chapter activities—but let's get the planning right to start with ... sounds a bit out of control!). Tony (talk) 10:44, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear, Tony. Firstly some remarks (as a musician to musician :). You are not right if you think that "It is now the norm to sing operas in their original language". Ghanzburh's article is more about theoretical aspect of an issue, while an historical aspect is issued on an article by M. Strikha (see p.e. [2]). As an examples he mentioned English national opera, singing in English. Also he mentioned that the reason to sing operas in original language is economical but not aesthetic. Of course many people could be sceptical of the ENO's philosophy, but many people are sceptical of the philosophy of singing in original language, not understandable for the listener too. It is not correct to think, that only first point of view is canonical, while the latter have no right to exist. In any case listeners who prefer to listen for a vocal music in their native language translation have a right to do so the same way as do Ukrainian lovers of Shakespeare or Star Wars serial (and obviously Russian, Polish, German etc.).
Now my answers:
  1. As you possibly know songs by Schubert, Schumann, Glinka, Rachmaninov and others are written for a singer and piano, not the orchestra. That`s why they will be performed by duo - pianist and soloist. It is an interesting idea to make an orchestration of these works, but not this time at least.
  2. As you possibly know professional studio recording demands much more money. I don`t think WMF or Chapters could pretend to be a high-quality recording label, while our mission is to popularise the free knowledge that could be used and developed by professionals later. This concert will be recordered by Mikhail Sinitzyn, he is a professional audioproducer, some of his works you could listen for his music here.
  3. The House of Scientist`s Hall has a fine acoustics for vocal performances. A lot of concerts, including planned within "Kyiv Music Fest" or "Premiers of Seasons" festivals were organised in this hall. Surely the music will be clear enough, and the listeners will be able to make out a single word.
  4. Most of earlier published scores are done by me. Some of them have been done by uk:User:Enn7 and reviewed by me. In all cases we used Sibelius application. "Le faucon" opera also was reviewed by Natalia Svyrydenko. While preparing a new vocal program I have additional consultations with vocalists (see in the project) who will sing pieces in the concert as well as H. Ghanzburh, prominent musicologist.
  5. As you possibly know Rachmaninov (1873-1943) is not a baroque composer. Even Schubert (1979-1828), the "oldest" composer, presented in the concert, is not a baroque composer as well. A don`t think there is any reason to play their music in old instruments as far as their epoch is not to far from ours, and as far as the tradition of playing their music in modern instruments is strong enough nowadays to follow it. In any case our project is not a part of HIP movement. Once again, we do not plan to involve an orchestra, just a piano. Clarinet and cello will be used for contemporary pieces only.
  6. here you could here both - Koval and Fitsych. Here you could see Fitsych. I have some more recordings, but they are not free, I can`t upload them to commons. --A1 (talk) 19:41, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Responses Intro: "You are not right if you think that "It is now the norm to sing operas in their original language"."—no evidence offered. Sung musical works are sometimes performed in translation, but there has been a clear trend in professional circles towards the original language. No one complains if high-school students are saved the burden of learning how to pronounce a foreign language, but when they get to tertiary studies, it would be remiss if they weren't inducted into originals. A musician's knowledge of singing in a number of foreign languages is part of the trade. I've already presented some of the reasons against translated singing in serious performance, from the listeners' point of view—when "not understandable for the listener" is the key argument, I must reiterate that listeners usually have difficulty comprehending sung words in many concert venues, styles, and on many recordings.

  • (1) "songs by ... are written for a singer and piano, not the orchestra". Yes. But I see Bach's Coffee Cantata; even Wagner's Tanhäuser—these would not be appropriate for WMF sites, I believe. I was expecting the instrumentation (and the performers' names) to appear somewhere.
  • (2) "I don`t think WMF or Chapters could pretend to be a high-quality recording label"—yes ... it goes to the heart of one of the problems we had on en.WP with the Featured Sounds forum: sounds of rare frogs were fine, but as soon as we got to music, one came up against the fact that musical performance (and recording) has been utterly professionalised. This was unlike the issues faced by Featured Articles (professional-standard writing is more widespread and within reach of many Wikimedians) and Featured Pictures (same). The world is awash with superb recordings/performances, and they have set very high expectations. I don't mean to deride your team for one moment—but let's hear the results and judge against what is now the norm for musical recordings. The YouTube link for examples of Sinitzyn's work—it's very good, but a narrow range of commercial music or vocal narration against simple musical background. Again, I don't want to prejudge, but make sure he's very fussy about clarity of diction, since that seems to be the whole point.
  • (3) and (4) sounds good; it's just that many many live professional performances occur in suboptimal acoustics. Let's see what it's like.
  • (5) I explicitly said you're on better ground with Rachmaninov, etc. Schubert was not born in 1979—from memory, it was 1797. I have no problem with your reasoning. But could you re-examine the plans for performing Pergolesi and JS Bach through the veil of what are by comparison "plummy" 21st-century instruments (and possibly vocal performance practice)? "Clarinet and cello will be used for contemporary pieces only."—OK, instrumentation should have appeared in the application, or have been linked from it.

Just one more thing: just checking that the Rachmaninov (well, and any contemporary music) is out of copyright, including composers' estates and the publishers of the scores. Copyright and music is just a hellish mess worldwide. If the music was composed before 1923, you're pretty safe on that count; if you based your scores on editions that are still copyrighted, there could be an issue with them, I guess.

I'm not going to stand in the way of funding or part-funding this (rather too sudden) event. But it will be an interesting learning experience to hear the results and talk through them. Tony (talk) 03:08, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Responses The tradition of vocal music translations has a long history and valuable artefacts. Such translations was accepted by such significant composers as Verdi, Wagner, Shostakovich and many others. In opposite the trend of original language singing is new and seems to be likely a transient fashion then a legislation. The loss of brilliant translations, particularly Ukrainian made by M.Rylski would be a great loss for culture, particularly Ukrainian, and our aim to avert this loss. On the other hand original language singing will exist forever at least in native composer`s countries, e.g. Bach will be always sung in German in Germany etc. Again, there is no aesthetic reason to sing operas in native language if this language is not understandable for listener, because an opera is not a exclusively a music genre, but syncretic, demanding the adequate perception of both - musical and literature components.
(1) "But I see Bach's Coffee Cantata" The program of the concert is just here. So, Coffee Cantata is not a subject of this submission. Though we plan to publish it at Commons in brilliant Ukrainian translation (this do not demand money) and, I hope to play it in brilliant Ukrainian translation later. If we will not have enough money to rent an orchestra it is also possible to sing it with piano accompanement - such tradition is not something extraordinary and in any case better then not to play at all. But, again, this is not a subject of this submission.
(2) We will try to do our best. In our case it is significant, that public concert could attract more people then a closed studio recording and thus more people could be interested and involved to Wikimedia movemenet. Obviously studio work could give us a little bit better recording but in this case we lose a cultural event and lose the opportunity to inspire and energise more and more musicians and poets to collaborate with us.
(5) Sorry for mistyping with Schubert, of course 1797. About Pergolesi - Natalia Svyrydenko has already an experience to perform Ukrainian-translated "La Serva Padrona" with harpsichord in 2011. As for me it would be better to use grand piano instead of harpsichord if there is no possibility to rent an orchestra, because grand piano has a much better dynamic range to imitate an orchestra. But in this case N. Svyrydenko will not agree with me. She is a great scholar in HIP movement and can`t stand any baroque music played on grand piano. In regard to "Coffee Cantata" surely Svyrydenko would be interested in performing this work in Ukrainian translation and surely she will insist in harpsichord accompaniment if we could not rent an orchestra. Most likely I will have to agree with her. --A1 (talk) 08:09, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Harpsichord ... best not to play orchestral reductions on harpsichord, which needs to take the role of continuo ... then you're just stuck with the problem of not having a viola da gamba and bass reinforcing the bass line. I can see why the idea of piano reductions for baroque music were dismissed: they're essential for choral rehearsals, but not beyond that. Tony (talk) 10:17, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Two Comments, one old, one new[edit]

  • I'm joining others in saying that purchasing equipment for about a third of the budget, for a one-time event, seems out-of-place. I understand the equipment may be used in the future, but I still think a one time event does not warrant a substantial amount of money, just like no one would think of paying an employee to produce the event.
  • One more thing: the proposal states that the event will be publicized "in mass media", although I didn't see any mention of that. Is there a plan to do some public relations, and if so why isn't it in the budget?

Many thanks for this, other than that I think it's a brilliant idea! NLIGuy (talk) 21:37, 13 May 2013 (UTC)