Grants talk:PEG/WM UA/Programs in Ukraine 2012

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Some questions[edit]

Thanks for the submission. My questions are the following:

  1. Could you please clarify the costs for Wiki Loves Monuments? In the budget you mention prizes worth $2,000 for Wiki Loves Monuments with no indication on other costs for the project. I assume that you have calculated them in the other items in the budget as you already note the use of the camera.
  2. Can you give more details about Wikiexpedition and the promotional album that you plan to publish? # Is it possible to get some promotional materials from the Wikimedia Foundation? It's ok if you have any problems with the reception of goods from outside, or if you plan to create and deliver souvenirs with different motifs.
  3. How many people will take part in these activities? In the scope you mention a need to support the activities.

Best regards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:33, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

  • I would also like to hear answers to the questions above.
  • As somebody who is originally from a neighbouring country (Belarus) I am well aware of the relative level of material wealth in Ukraine. I think that the requested camera is too expensive and unnecessary - there are a lot of excellent quality pictures taken by Ukrainian Wkipedians on Commons.
  • Otherwise the expenses sound reasonable.--Victoria (talk) 11:07, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
    I'm partially responsible for the camera, therefore I will answer about it. Unfortunately, cameras don't cost less in Ukraine and pictures' quality doesn't depend on an average income. The camera we want to buy is an entry class SLR-camera (basically, it's the cheapest camera which can produce high-quality pictures). But we want to buy it with two additional lenses: one normal lens with high aperture (making it possible to work in low-light conditions and in motion, which would be really useful in Wikiexpeditions), and another for distant portraits (e.g. for taking pictures of Ukrainian officials on press-conferences and in places with a lot of people). The final set is:
    • Camera Nikon D3100 18-55VR Kit — $625
    • Lens Nikkor AF-S 35mm f/1.8G DX — $230
    • Lens Nikkor 55-200mm f/4-5.6G AF-S DX VR — $195
    • Total$1050
    Additionally we need some basic accessories (namely SD-card, spare battery, bag, tripod, UV-filter, cleaner for lenses) which add another $200. Additionally about 7-9% of the sum will be spent on processing of the non-cash money transfer – that's due to the way Internet shops work in Ukraine. Therefore the final sum is about $1350. I think that would be enough.
    As a result, we will get universal camera set for producing illustrations of high quality for Wikipedia in a wide range of possible situations.
    Also, I must say that low income of Ukrainians is exactly the reason we need this camera: really few Wikipedians from Ukraine possess their own professional cameras. Without them the idea of Wikiexpeditions is half useless. --ΑΜακυχα Θ 22:56, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
    • About wikiexpeditions and album. Wikiexpeditions are aimed to get quality images from remote corners of Ukraine. Also wikiexpedition is a good opportunity to visit ethnographic museums, to learn more about remote cultural heritage objects and to contact with region authorities, turning their attention to such actual problems of nowadays as protection and preservation of cultural heritage as well as knowledge diffusion in small towns and villages in general.
      We have already managed 4 expeditions, basic information about them is available in Wikimedia Ukraine pages, and photos are stored in commons:Category:Ukrainian Wikiexpeditions. These photos are available for wikiedians from all over the world.
      Promotional album is not only a chance to tell people what is Wikipedia, but also it is a good opportunity to demonstrate how do we use our results for scientists and amators. It is important to emphasize that people in small towns think that cultural world initiatives are too far from their life and their aims. But it is not true. "A world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge" means involving people from every corner of a Globe to knowledge diffusion process. Thus presenting people a tangible results of our activity we convince them that it is resolutely possible, easy and fascinating to be involved into world wikimedian movement for anyone in our country. --A1 (talk) 08:36, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
  • About $2,000 for Wiki Loves Monuments - it is expected that prize pool will be little less - about 1200$, while the other sum will be spent for promotion (press-conferences, publicity) and travel/meal costs for prize-winners. I've made an adjustment. --A1 (talk) 20:01, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Measure[edit]

The measure is too generic. The grant will cover several activities, in this case may you define a rank of most important activities? --Ilario (talk) 08:48, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Real measures were added.
The ranking is following (approximate, based on replies from three members of board):
  • Office assistant, state reports, office supplies
  • Travel and meals (for Wikiconference, WMUA GM, wikiworkshops)
  • Wiki Loves Monuments
  • Wikiexpeditions
  • Camera
  • Publishing manuals & booklets / Souvenirs
  • Scanning books for Wikicommons/Wikisources (Digitalizing materials)
  • Publishing a promotional album «The Wikiexpeditions Pathes»
  • Buying books for WMUA Library
--ΑΜακυχα Θ 22:00, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, appreciated. --Ilario (talk) 17:07, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Hi Ilario. What is the logic behind ranking? Abbasjnr (talk) 03:50, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
This is a grant collecting several projects. Is there a sense to understand which is the main project? Imagine that all funds are spent for scanning books, is it valid? This rank helps the local chapter to give them some priorities and gives to the GAC a system of evaluation. --Ilario (talk) 10:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
OK. Thanks. Abbasjnr (talk) 12:06, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

More budget questions[edit]

  • Could you expand on the need for the assistant role? Just how much paperwork is there, and what would be the assistant's job once the paperwork is handled? Is this a full time job or a part time job? If part time, approx. how many hours a week? Does WMUA have agreed-upon policies for hiring, firing, expenses, travel, etc., necessary to becoming an employer? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:18, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Wikimedia Ukraine is a legal entity, an enterprise with bank accounts, monthly reporting to tax administration, e-payment systems. Running the WM UA is like running any other business. As a General Director of the Association of IT Enterprises of Ukraine (AITEU) I am pretty busy man and have a personal assistant who is already doing all necessary boring duties also for WM UA:
  • keeping in order all documents (receipts, checks, acts on work performed, agreements with partners: bank, donors, contractors, e-payment companies, media companies, publishers, educational institutions, auditing company),
  • courier services (monthly visits to bank and to auditing company)
  • bank transactions
Our members and the Auditing committee also need the monthly income and expenditures reports — and that also will be the duty of the assistant.
The number of hours corresponds with the asked sum of USD 200 per month and the cost of job of my assistant.
We do not hire the assistant as she is the employer of AITEU. --Perohanych (talk) 08:59, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
See below. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Could you clarify the item "Staff for dealing with digitalizing voluminous publications that could be published in WM-projects under free license"? What sort of staff? What basis of employment? Is this something not currently doable by volunteers? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:18, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
In order to encourage authors to publish their works under free license we strive for filling Wikisource and, partially, Wikipedia with scrupulously digitalized old works. Especially significant are publications of rarities or even works that have been never published earlier. In this case we promote Wikimedia projects as an unique site sharing a knowledge in a way, hardly possible for anybody else. For example one of such work is our publication of undeservedly forgotten opera "Le Faucon" by D.Bortniansky (see project page and wikisource page), which is planned to come into the repertoire of Ukrainian theatres thanks to our activity.
Digitalizing of old materials demands firstly a scanner, and, in most cases, special experience, especially dealing with music materials. We have a scanner in AITEU/WM UA office, but, as mentioned above, Yuri Perohanych have no time for such job as scanning voluminous materials. That's why an assistant who could make this job is needed. UAH 12000 per year (or UAH 1000 (~USD 120) per month) is a smallest sum even considerably below the number of hours needed for such job. --A1 (talk) 22:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
That doesn't sound like the way we do this kind of work. See below. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Has the library idea been discussed in the community? (If so, please point at the page). I.e. where it would be (physically), how it would be used, what it needs to contain, etc. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:18, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! (feel free to respond directly after each question.) Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:18, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

It already occupies a shelf in the AITEU office, here we have books, which were presented us by the Association of Philanthropists of Ukraine and some books of WM UA members. I am often asked by wikimedians if it is possible to buy this or that book (usually an encyclopedia or a book with biographies or statistics) to use it for writing new or improve existed articles in Wikipedia, or to scan the texts which are in the public domain. The idea was discussed among the WM UA Board members, but not on-line so far. We consider it as a pilot project with a small sum of USD 200 per year or less then USD 20 per month just to see if it will prove as reasonable. See also http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/Наша_бібліотека --Perohanych (talk) 08:59, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I see, thanks. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

A final (from me) set of questions[edit]

I apologize it took me longer than I would have liked. to review the answers to my previous questions.

  • Reading the explanation about the album above -- am I correct in understanding it would be primarily used for demonstration purposes, and occasionally as a gift to partners or dignitaries? How many copies are planned? What is the cost breakdown for its production? Who is doing the work of editing and typesetting the book to get it ready for printing? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
    Yes you are right. 500 copies are planned, 64 full-coloured pages each copy. Responsible person for this project is J. Buket, he will prepare a layout and all the other spadework, and finally the publisher will be selected after a tender. --A1 (talk) 09:10, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
  • If WMUA is not hiring the assistant, I'm not sure how the money is paying the assistant's salary, and against what invoice. Also, $200/month seem like almost half the average monthly wage in Ukraine and you state the sum is commensurate with the hours the work would take. Can it be it takes almost 100 hours a month to handle the WMUA paperwork? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • the actual work of scanning documents, like the work of writing articles and taking photos, is work normally we consider volunteer work, across our movement. While we are happy to consider buying some scanning equipment to be owned by WMUA and operated by some of the volunteers of the Ukrainian editing community (and physically located at their houses or offices), we will not pay people to do the actual scanning, just as we do not pay editors. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
    I think if needed this item could be withdrawn. --A1 (talk) 09:10, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
    Please withdraw this, then, and be sure to update the budget and the total at the top of the grant proposal accordingly. I'd recommend striking out (using <s>...</s>) instead of overwriting, to help make sense of this discussion, in the future. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 19:01, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
    Thank you. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:42, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Wikiexpeditions, in a country as large as Ukraine, seem like a good opportunity to do more than content acquisition. You acknowledge this in some of the comments about getting people interested in the projects etc. Can you assure us each Wikiexpedition will, to the greatest extent possible, be used to create and develop opportunities in each local context -- organizational partnerships, public lectures, brief editing workshops, etc., -- and not just for acquiring photos? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
    Regarding Wikiexpedition: I think that expectation that it is going to be a local outreach inititive in some larger scale is not very probable. From my experience with 2 wikiexpeditions I know it is hard to combine effective collecting photo and other documentation with organising workshops or public lectures. You can do some outreach (for example meet with local NGO's, county, town's, museums and national park officials, amateur photographers, historitans etc) - but rather as a secondary activity. Organising effective local outreach requires rather a seperate project. So I think Asaf, that forsing our Ukrainian friends to assure that they will do workshops and provide lectures during the wikiexpedition is not fair, and it won't work even if they assure you in order to get money for their expedition :-) Polimerek (talk) 10:31, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
    We seem to agree, actually: you say yourself it is possible to combine some outreach, as a secondary activity. That's exactly what I am asking for, and note "to the greatest extent possible", but no more! :) Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 18:10, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
    Actually at least 4 of 5 managed expeditions included promotional meetings and lectures. All these 4 expeditions were organised by J. Buket and Olexa Yur, and these persons are responsible for this direction of WM UA activity this year. Reports about each wikiexpedition are avaible in the page "Вікіекспедиції". Morover, all these expeditions draw a wide response in Media (for example here you could observe 22 publications), making near a half of publications about Wikimedia projects in Ukrainian media. Especially successful was the last expedition to Kiev Pechersk Lavra - we achive an agreement with administration of this museum about our further collaboration. The report from this expedition could be seen here. This give us certainty to assure that promotional actions such as organizational partnerships and public lectures would be important as great as possible part of our future expeditions. --A1 (talk) 09:10, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
    Great, thanks! Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 19:01, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I have no issue with the rest of the request. It will be approved as soon as you either satisfactorily address the concerns above, or withdraw these items from the request. Thanks! Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Remaining issue[edit]

(copied from above) If WMUA is not hiring the assistant, I'm not sure how the money is paying the assistant's salary, and against what invoice. Also, $200/month seem like almost half the average monthly wage in Ukraine and you state the sum is commensurate with the hours the work would take. Can it be it takes almost 100 hours a month to handle the WMUA paperwork? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

There are two legal ways of paying a person in Ukraine. First one is expensive. You literally «hire» a person. Then, if you want to pay a person netto (after taxes) UAH 100, than you have to have 168, because the person's brutto (before taxes) salary should be 122,85 (a person should pay 15% personal income tax and 3,6% of social tax (fund for pension). Also, the company which hires a person should pay 45,15 (or 36,76% from the 122,85) as a «salary tax». I regret to explain you another way, which is also legal and less expensive. A company concludes a contract with so called «individual entrepreneur» who uses so called «simplified tax system» (the maximal yearly turnover of the entrepreneur is limited up to UAH 150 000). A company pays the «individual entrepreneur» 100, the entrepreneur pays 1% of the sum to his bank (for the transaction), 5% tax, takes 4% for himself and canhttp://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grants_talk:WM_UA/Programs_in_Ukraine_2012 return the other 90 as a cash. Both parties (the company and the employee) are happy. That is the reason why the real average monthly wage (as well as a real GDP) in Ukraine is at least three time bigger than the «official» one. So, $200/month corresponds with not more than 30 hours --Perohanych (talk) 09:45, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Will you be able to show an invoice from this "entrepreneur" for the money paid toward the assistant's compensation? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 00:18, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, paid staff requires more careful planning, and we are in the midst of significant changes in how grants supporting paid staff will be done (i.e. they would go through the FDC process.), so I'm afraid we won't approve this particular item at this point, until we have looked into this in some greater detail. The proposed arrangement sounds a little murky, and it is not entirely clear the benefits are essential and cannot be achieved by the volunteers with the assistance of the (already existing) paid external professionals.

Therefore, I suggest WMUA remove this item (the USD 2400 for "Fees for assistant to Executive Director") from the grant proposal, and we will be able to proceed with rest of the items. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 00:18, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Removed. Anyway, the position of Executive Director of the Ukrainian chapter requires an assistant to do dull paper job, pay bills, coordinating directors meetings, typing and sending letters, monitoring media, publishing news in the WM UA blog etc. USD 200 per month is not too much for the job, even in Ukraine. I hope to find the money in other sources. --Perohanych (talk) 11:32, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
As far as I know, such chapters as Wikimedia France or Wikimedia Deutschland have a staff not only for working with papers, but as well for programming researches such as WikiData which in fact could be managed by volunteers. IMHO the precedent of using a paid staff by such respectable chapters for some job, that hypothetically could be done by a volunteer is a good example to do the same for other chapters without any exclusions. It looked strange if different chapters would have different possibilities or polices. That's only my humble opinion, and I'd be interested to hear other GAC members on that issue for a better clarity. --A1 (talk) 19:53, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
I think Asaf concern regarding the assitant is not about that he/she will replace volunteers work, but the legal issue of the "self-employment" model of hiring this person. From Perohanych description of the assistant duties it seems that this is mainly dull paperwork job. For me it is obvious that the chapter of size of WMUA cannot work for longer without at least one employee responsible for paperwork and general coordination of the projects and official stuff. In Poland the system of "self-employment" in which in-fact employee is not hired but establish his/her own tiny company and then is payed for outsource service, is very common as well, especially in IT and accounting sector. This is simply a kind of outsourcing which also exists in US. Polimerek (talk) 07:38, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, Polimerek. I just can not imagine how «the chapter of size of WMUA can work for longer without at least one employee responsible for paperwork and general coordination of the projects and official stuff.» --Perohanych (talk) 11:39, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
I think that there is a fundamental difference betwen emloying a highly skilled stuff such as programmers and a relatively low skilled person such as PA. In a large project where a lot of voluneetrs involved (programming or even a Grant Committee) there is a necessity for somebody, who coordinates all the effort and does it full time, while paper work in our time of personal computers is easely done directly by the same person, who writes the letter/proposal. You cite examples of WM France and WM Deutschland, who do a lot of fundraising. It's only fair that they spend the money as they want, and WM UKraine is welcome to hire as many PA as needed, when you fund yourself. I think that an "assistant" should not be funded.--Victoria (talk) 09:16, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
It is not so easy as you suppose. "Paper work" requires not only dealing with computer as in case with programmers or even a Grant Committee, but mostly a lot of time for visiting post office, bank, tax office and so on. As you possibly know all money donated from Ukraine are sent to WMF, not WM UA. --A1 (talk) 09:38, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

GAC members who have read this request but had no comments[edit]

  • I had questions regarding camera, but they are already resonable answered, so I fully support this grant. Polimerek (talk) 09:48, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I second Polimerek. Béria Lima msg 22:18, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
  • Seems sensible enough. I don't know much about high-end cameras so count me as neutral on that part, but the rest of this request sounds quite reasonable to me. Craig Franklin (talk) 00:06, 14 April 2012 (UTC).
  • It seems me a decent grant request there should be no issues with this request--Mayur (talkEmail) 14:31, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Monthly reports[edit]

Fees for preparing monthly reports to state (outsourced to the auditing company) 12 x 600 = UAH 7200 (USD 900)

But where are monthly reports? AuditCom asked to send us reports in March. Now is the end of June, but we can see any monthly report.--Anatoliy (talk) 09:00, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

These are reports to the Tax Inspection and some other state control bodies. The copies are kept with the auditing company, and are passed to WMUA office once a year. --Perohanych (talk) 20:08, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
There is no good reason to have to wait a year to see reports that are prepared every month. Please find a solution to make them available to the community on a monthly basis. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 20:22, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Request for funds reallocation[edit]

The Board of Wikimedia Ukraine has reached a decision to request for some changes to our programs. This decision is motivated by the extraodinary success of the WLM in Ukraine (More than 13 000 pictures uploaded, No 5 in the world for now, almost 500 participants, about 100 messages in media, attention of ministers etc.) On the other hand, unfortunately, our Wikiexpeditions activity was not as intensive as expected, mostly because of preparations this summer for the WLM.

These changes are next:

Instead of the promotional album "Стежками Вікіекспедицій" ("Paths of Wikiexpeditions") we now alternately intend to publish the promotional album "Вікі любить пам'ятки в Україні" ("Wiki Loves Monuments in Ukraine"). The format, number of copies and other technical details remain unchanged, as does the main purpose of the publication.

The change, in essence, is only in content: the proposed album will include the best photos from the "Wiki Loves Monuments" (WLM) competition from Ukraine, as decided by the jury which evaluated the submissions.

As to distribution of the final product, some copies of the album will be presented to participants of the competition, the remainder will be used for wide promotion of Wikimedia projects, particularly Wikimedia Commons, Wikimedia and WLM competition.

We hereby request permission to redirect:

  1. the 2500 USD as declared in the grant (section Publishing) to the proposed "Wiki Loves Monuments in Ukraine" album instead of the "Paths of Wikiexpeditions" album
  2. the 1500 USD as declared in the grant (within the section Wikeexpeditions fees) to Wiki Loves Monuments 2012 Ukraine project. These money will be spent for next purposes:
    1. travel and meal fees for prizewinners who don't live in Kyiv.
    2. a reward for travel and meal for jury members.
    3. additional souvenirs with Wikimedia amd WLM-logos for prize-winners and jury members.

On behalf of MMUA Board, Yuri Perohanych, «Wikimedia Ukraine» Board Member & Executive Director, --Perohanych (talk) 14:11, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Approved. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 01:25, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Request for funds reallocation (Wiki Loves Monuments 2012 Ukraine budget line)[edit]

Dear GAC members,

WMUA Board has come to a decision to request some funds reallocation.

We were able to save around USD 800 out of USD 2000 allocated for the entry "Wiki Loves Monuments 2012 Ukraine" (prizes and promotional), as some prizes for the WLM-2012 winners were funded by Viktor Baloha, former Governor of Transcarpathia. During November-December we have organized the contest "Writing about Transcarpathia" at his request (the goal of the contest was writing new articles about his native region, improving the existing ones and uploading pictures). The partnership was definitely profitable for Wikimedia Ukraine, and "Writing about Transcarpathia" contest was particularly successful, with 360 new and improved articles and more than 400 free images uploaded including the historic ones. We are to buy a prize for one of the winners. The prize that has been promised is ASUS Transformer Pad Infinity TF700T-1I041A 32GB Champagne Gold Doc. The average price in Ukraine is UAH 5600 ~= USD 700.

Also we need some money for "Wiki Loves Monuments in Ukraine" album distribution, that was not included in the grant. We want to send this album to WLP contest prizewinners and jury members, local authorities (as we would like to have all the help we can get with the lists of cultural heritage monuments and their obtaining seems a bit difficult, and we believe that presenting them with such a great edition will assist us in rendering our desire both to cowork on the regular basis and share free knowledge), our future partners for the next contest, libraries etc. Approximately 100 USD is needed for this.

Thus we request the reallocation of remaining USD 800 budgeted for "Wiki Loves Monuments 2012 Ukraine" (prizes and promotional) line as follows:

  • 700 USD for a "Writing about Transcarpathia" prize (ASUS Transformer Pad Infinity TF700T-1I041A 32GB Champagne Gold Doc)
  • 100 USD for "Wiki Loves Monuments in Ukraine" album distribution (post expenses)

--antanana 02:56, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Nataliya Tymkiv
Treasurer (Board Vice-President on Finance) Wikimedia Ukraine

This is approved. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 05:23, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Request for changes to project budget[edit]

Hello! Please note that WMUA has requested some changes to the project budget outlined here: Grants:WM_UA/Programs_in_Ukraine_2012/Reallocation. Cheers, Winifred Olliff (Grants Administrator) talk 17:14, 27 June 2013 (UTC)