Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Hanja 2

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main page Request for a new language edition: Wikipedia Hanja 2
submitted verification final decision
Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy).

The language committee needs to verify the language is eligible to be approved.

  • Check that the project does not already exist (see list).
  • Obtain an ISO 639 code
  • Ensure the requested language is sufficiently unique that it could not exist on a more general wiki.
  • Ensure that there are a sufficient number of native editors of that language to merit an edition in that language.
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code  (SILEthnologue) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Hanja Language name in English
Language name 韓國語(國漢文) Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q485619 - item has currently the following values:
  • en label = Hanja
  • native label (P1705) = 한자
  • instance/subclass (P31/P279) = writing system / Chinese characters
  • Wikimedia language code (P424) =
  • writing system (P282) = Hangul
  • number of speakers (P1098) =


Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Community
You can optionally list your user name if you are an active contributor to the test wiki. Add "N" next to your name if you are a native speaker of this language.
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Settings
Project name 위키百科 "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace 위키百科 usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace 위키百科討論 "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads yes Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo File:... 135x135 PNG derivative from a decent SVG image (instructions)
Default project timezone Asia/Seoul "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example for a Wikisource which would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk"
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
submit phabricator task (includes everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings)

Proposal[edit]

I want to reguest for creating a 韓國語 Wikipedia which means Korean Wikipedia. I know actually there is Korean pages in here but the language i want to add is slight difference from normal Korean language. In general, we write Korean itself as 한국어 in Korean. However, there are still many people write Korean as 韓國語.

Historically, Korean language had two writing systems. First one is using only Hangul in Korean which is phonogram. Second one is using Hangul and Chinese character in Korean.
If I compare it to Japanese, which uses original Japanese character(hiragana and katakana) and Chinese character(Kanji). First one would be like ありがとうand second one would be 有難う
In Korean, It would be 감사합니다 and 感謝합니다
I know this is a mere different writing form that easy to be rejected. But, writing Korean using Hangul and chinese character is also traditional way to write Korean. And also, since Chinese character is ideogram that express meaning of the words. It can be very different and distinctive than normal Korean.

Here is some sites written in 韓國語 http://www.hanjanews.com/ http://kore.wikia.com/wiki/%EB%8C%80%EB%AC%B8

Discussion[edit]

  • No ISO code. Can't pages in this script be incorporated into Korean Wikipedia? StevenJ81 (talk) 19:41, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
    • The ISO(IETF) code for such a project should be ko-Hani. Hani is the script code for Hanja and such in ISO 15924C933103 (talk) 22:01, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Can be incorporated into the Korean Wikipedia by adding a converter with manual options that changes words with Hanja equivalents. --Explosivo (talk) 18:29, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
    w:Hanja points to a converter, so better retrofit a converter into not only Korean Wikipedia but also other Korean wikis. As a native Chinese speaker learning Korean, neither Chinese nor Korean wikis should be split based on scripts, i.e. traditional & simplified Chinese and Korean hangul & hanja.--Jusjih (talk) 03:26, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
    As you can see on the early November comment in the linked page, such system would have to be based on frequency of vocab and thus would require a lot of special handling and markups. As you can already see on Chinese wikipedia that tons of conversion group, per-article conversion rules and inline special conversion handling are needed to make the system work in most of the case, it will only be worse for Korean with hanja. Probably still doable with enough commitment? It probably depend on do local Korean Wikipedia community want to achieve it or not, and would they be willing to help developing the dictionary in this direction. C933103 (talk) 22:01, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
    Yes. This proposal depends on the willingness of existing Korean users. Are they aware of this request? If any headstart is available, I might be able to also mark up, to practice Korean.--Jusjih (talk) 04:24, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
    @Jusjih:It will probably be a good idea if you can ask them about it at ko:위키백과:사랑방 (일반). C933103 (talk) 20:51, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
    @Jusjih: Actually... it have been discussed in korean wikipedia village pump about 11 years ago, as you can see the opinion at that time on the page was almost universally oppose. However, one reason behind the massive opposition could be that the proposed solution at the time was to make most of the wikipedia korea source code to become hanja-based and thus it would be difficult for regular editor to edit them. There are also about ten users expressed their support on proposer's userpage but that's it.C933103 (talk) 06:04, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment Comment Personally I would think 🤔 that this would make a great Wikisource, well, have a “Wikiproject Chinese script” be added to the Korean Wikisource, but as much as I would like to write ✍🏻 Symbol strong support vote.svg Strong support here, I am very familiar with the fact that only a small handful of languages get accepted in different scripts (Hindustani Wikipedia being divided in a Hindi Wikipedia and an Urdu Wikipedia is the only one I can think of off the top of my head), I really love reading Hanja texts and scripts, but unless the Language Committee changes their rules the creation of a Hanja Wikipedia is extremely unlikely, I really would support a Hanja Wikisource or the creation of a Hanja library in the Korean Wikisource. Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱. --Donald Trung (Talk 🤳🏻) (My global lock 😒🌏🔒) (My global unlock 😄🌏🔓) 11:13, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
    • In Japanese's case, all of their Kanbun text are to be stored on Chinese wikisource. Not sure about how Korean hanja text are stored.C933103 (talk) 16:36, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
      • Even the latest South Korean Constitution proclaimed in 1987 would be written with many hanja [1], so Korean works like this should be better hosted on Korean Wikisource with hanja and a button to convert to hangul, not Chinese Wikisource. Automatic Chinese conversion started on Wikipedia due to heavy demand then Chinese Wikisource when breaking away from Old Wikisource, then allowing hosting ancient texts in traditional Chinese with buttons to convert scripts. Wikipedia resembles an evolving work, but Wikisource does not, so adding “Wikiproject Chinese script” to Korean Wikisource is much easier than retrofitting Korean Wikipedia.--Jusjih (talk) 05:28, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Please get a Korean Wikisource consensus before filing a task like phab:T182482 or do something there, thanks. — regards, Revi 08:38, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
And please note that Korean Wikisource consensus seem to be "Hanja does not belong to Korean Wikisource, it belongs on Chinese Wikisource". s:ko:위키문헌:사랑방#한문 문헌의 수록 문제. — regards, Revi 08:44, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
@-revi: Because of rationale mentioned in the phabricator task, please treat the task as filed in error or equivalent.
Also, the Korean wikisource consensus being linked is about Hanmun, not Hanja. Hanmun is equivalent to Literary Chinese, while Hanja is just a character form that can be used to facilitate the writing of various languages, including Korean.
And at last, despite all of the discussions being conducted above, and despite I have linked this request from the now-closed phabricator ticket, please consider that this is a request for Korean Wikipedia written in Hanja script, not a request for converter between different scripts on any wikiprojects, and thus future discussions about the proposal should probably either go back to the now closed phabricator ticket, or user talk pages of involved users, or in relevant project talk pages in Korean wikiprojects or meta. C933103 (talk) 18:41, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
@-revi: "Hanja does not belong to Korean Wikisource, it belongs on Chinese Wikisource"? Then I will ask Chinese Wikisource users to provisionally host Korean hanja source texts if needed.--Jusjih (talk) 05:11, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Well, this is going offtopic to "Wikipedia Hanja" but anyway... well, there was some misunderstanding but anyway pure Hanja texts does not belong in Korean Wikisource. — regards, Revi 05:19, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
@-revi: Chinese Wikisource may take pure Hanja texts, but not mixed Korean in hangul and hanja. Is this your opinion?--Jusjih (talk) 03:23, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support As the participant of first request of Hanja Wikipedia, I think the WRONG policy from Language Committee, have to vanish. The LC in 10 years ago, failed to find the way to include Hanja script into Korean Wikipedia - the reason of the rejection(because of it does not exist, and will not exist). and ISO Code policy for Wikipedia have made because of this project. This policy made more different language - jje(Jejueo) and North-Chinese-Russian Korean to unable to make its sum of the knowledge in its language at that time. I think this was very problematic decision. The writings of ko-kore are something different with Korean in nowadays. And this project have 1,617 articles already. Therefore, the policy have to changed, and LC have to apologize it to all wikimedians. - Ellif (talk) 08:41, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
  • I fear any other Korean wikiproject will eventually die just like kowikiquote, kowikibooks, kowikinews, kowikiversity. — regards, Revi 09:25, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
    • I also agree. Hanja WP would not be easy thing, than the passions from 10 years ago. However, I think the writings and methodologies in Gughanmun have to include into the 'sum of the knowledge'. And KOWP could not do for it. I think that it is for our Strategy 2030, also. - Ellif (talk) 07:19, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
    Practically there's nobody taking care of the projects outside kowiki, and I fear this "Wikipedia Hanja" will get the same fate. I'm fine with "Wikipedia Hanja" in Incubator as long as there's a proper ISO 639 code assigned, but I do not support the creation of the new project in a dedicated subdomain and a db, because... nobody would take care of the stuff. Bit of related comment on ko:백:사랑방 (일반)/2017년 제33주#위키여행 많이 이용해주세요. — regards, Revi 05:19, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • @Galadrien: As far as I understand, the usage situation of Hanja among Korean people in Northern Chinese when writing in Korean aren't really that different from Korean people in Korea (as in the mostly lack of usage), although most of them also speak, read and write Chinese which make them able to understand the script easier? As for Jejueo, the previous request was closed for the lack of ISO 639-3 code. Because the code have been requested in 2014 and created in 2015, if you open a new request for Jejueo Wikipedia now, I believe there is a high chance that it would gain eligibility. (Although that does not mean it would be approved for creation, which will depend on level of activity it can attract).C933103 (talk) 15:14, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
    • First of all, 'North-Chinese-Russian Korean' means the combination of North Korean(북한어/문화어), Chinese Korean(조선족 한국어), and Russian Korean(고려어). They have similarities with South Korean, but also have visible dissimilarities in written form, also. Therefore, It have to made with another wikipedia.
      For the most of under-40 Korean, Now Hanja is difficult thing, because they do not have a live with it. This is the Korean Wikipedia could not include Gukhanmun form - because most contributors could not do it. - Ellif (talk) 19:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
      • Ah sorry for misunderstanding but the same still holds. If I recall correctly, there was suggestions to use language converter or support via other means on Korean Wikipedia to cater for the North-South orthographic difference, but the issue have been deferred to until there are significant amountof internet users from the North? C933103 (talk) 01:41, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
        • No. North koreans also DO NOT USE hanja in their life. And I do not have remembrance for the any consensus with using technical support for hanja or North Korean, inside the KOWP. Rather, some KOWP users suggested to remove hanja marking in the first paragraph. and some users have negative opinion on using hanja in the center of the article. Moreover, As I know, all North Korean contribution in KOWP have reverted, and regarded as the vandal, because KOWP uses the South Korean only. - Ellif (talk) 04:15, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
          • In my latest reply I was specifically talking about North Korean orthography, not hanja. Edit: Note: If I recalled correctly, the decision I was reading was made some years ago (2005-2009?), and thus there could be changes that I am not aware of about.C933103 (talk) 02:07, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
            • @Galadrien: I consider removing hanja marking in the first paragraph too excessive, but based on my experience learning Korean and thus having to adapt to pure hangul, not using hanja in the center of the article is tolerable, but exceptions should still be considered for proper nouns that cannot be readily obtained from dictionaries. Fro example, the lists of cast members in Korean dramas and films may sometimes have hanja names in screen. Dictionaries cannot normally get them. After all, any attempt to retrofit hanja with any converter should be tried on Korean Wikisource first.--Jusjih (talk) 04:17, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support - It's difficult that Hangul only Korean articles coexist with articles in the mixed script of Hangul and Hanja in a same wiki because it's almost impossible machine translation between them. Hanja is still being used in Korea. So, an independent wiki for the mixed script is needed separating from the existing Hangul-only Korean Wikipedia. --Wikipean (talk) 09:00, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
    Wikisource is much less evolving than Wikipedia, so how about trying your idea to Korean Wikisource first?--Jusjih (talk) 03:46, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
  • @StevenJ81: So as many users made their support comments, how do we make a test project In Hanja, should we unlock incubator:Wp/kor? --223.104.7.154 06:25, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
    Yes, please unlock.--Jusjih (talk) 00:22, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment Comment Please understand that even if one does not use machine transliteration/transcription, it is entirely possible for one project to have pages in multiple scripts. Please see the following in the Judeo-Spanish (Ladino) Wikipedia, which I work on:

The two pages are directly linked to each other, and there are ways to get them connected through Wikidata, too.
Alternatively, the project linked above (wikia:kore) seems to be handling this quite nicely, as well.
In order for you to get a separate project in Hanja, you will need to show that the community of kowiki is hostile to including Hanja pages, and that there is a real community for a Hanja project that is not served by the conventional Korean script. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

@StevenJ81: Well, I'm afraid that this is the East Asian counterpart of Romanian problem, which means that, like Romanian peoples never agree Moldovan Cyrillic because of the historic Romanian Cyrillic (for more reason of this, email George Ho which is the first man that bumped the likely topic, or join Requests for comment/Extreme abuses at the Romanian Wikipedia), modern Korean peoples will also never agree sharing their Hangul-based ko.wiki* wikis with Hanja-based wikis due to ethnic moods, and with consideration of Wikia, Wikimedia has lesser hacker attack possibility than Wikia (although we can't simply say "never" either), thus I would request to start a "special code judging" vote within langcom-l, to decide if "unbreaking" kor is acceptable for them or not, if successed, I will say a big HOORAY because this one is the first ISO 639-3 code that is indeed splitted usage from its ISO 639-1 "ko". --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 12:36, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
By the way, I would like to ask if Korean Wikiquote prefers pure hangul. Incubator:Wq/mul/Capital city and Incubator:Wq/mul/Flag desecration have a few Korean quotes in hangul and hanja. Hopefully there is no need for separate Korean hanja Wikiquote. My tested Multilingual Wikiquote will take hanja quotes.--Jusjih (talk) 03:32, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
Yep, this discussion only suggests creating a separated Wikipedia with Hanja contents, and the reason why I propose to start a vote to get potential approval of "ko-hani" or "kor" is per Language committee/Voting policy:

--Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:42, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Support We should consider altering the local usage of ISO 639-3 kor from the original Korean Wikipedia. --117.15.55.228 08:34, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Strong support – This is exactly the sort of project Wikimedia should host. Because the Korean Wikipedia is completely opposed to the use of Chinese characters, there is no space for Korean mixed script, a long-running and important mode of expressing the Korean language. Considering the significance of this mode of writing in Korean history, and also, considering the impact of Sino-Korean vocabulary on the Korean language, this project would allow readers to have a more intimate understanding of the words they use, convey meaning in a mode than is important historically for Koreans, and allow for the more adequate understanding of legal and technical concepts, which are dominated by such vocabulary. In this way, it is very similar to the Simple English Wikipedia, but in reverse. Please accept this proposal, and give the Korean mixed script the space it deserves. RGloucester (talk) 00:13, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment Comment @User:Liuxinyu970226 has asked me to start a vote at LangCom on this project request. As he has pointed out, such a vote would require a 2/3 majority to pass. My response to him was that there were other items ahead of this in the queue for me to bring to LangCom, and that I cannot do this until a bit later in the (northern hemisphere) summer. Still, there are some things that you will need to do in the meantime if you want me to bring this to LangCom. See my comments just above:
    • "[Y]ou will need to show that the community of kowiki is hostile to including Hanja pages". The commentary above suggests that this is true. However, the only formal discussion at kowiki seems to have happened over ten years ago. I think LangCom will need to see the results of a current RfC at kowiki suggesting that this position has not changed. And I will strongly encourage the idea that not only script converters but also parallel pages (as on Ladino Wikipedia) are potential approaches to the problem, and that both possibilities should be presented in this RfC.
  • "[Y]ou will need to show ... that there is a real community for a Hanja project that is not served by the conventional Korean script." My doubts on this issue stem from the comments of @User:-revi, someone I very much respect, above. Revi has suggested that this project could be created in Incubator, but that he didn't see enough of a community willing to take care of it as an eventual independent project. If there isn't such a community, then LangCom will not want to support this project.
  • Alternatively, the project linked above (wikia:kore) seems to be handling this quite nicely, as well. The one objection I heard to this was that Wikia is somewhat more vulnerable to hackers than Wikimedia. If that is the only problem, we can move the Wikia project to the new Incubator Plus on Miraheze, which should be safer and easier to use. Why wouldn't that be a workable solution?
At the very least, when I take this to LangCom, those questions will need to be answered, either on this page or in what I post on the LangCom discussion group. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:14, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
Latest comment on Hanja usage in Korean Wikipedia was in April 2015 and those who commented was unanimously against it. — regards, Revi 18:21, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Might worth noting that even mixing Korean and Hanja in the domain name is controversial. Korean K-12 education system has long phased out mixed scripts and Hnaja education is optional (up to school discretion). Also that South Korean legislation requires usage of Hangul for (government) official business: s:ko:국어기본법#14 — which means less significance of Hanja in Korean's daily life. — regards, Revi 18:06, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
Also modern Koreans thinks Hanja is less significant in their lives, according to Gallup Korea few years ago. # Half of respondents believe Hanja is not within Korean as a lang, and the reason hanja should be used it to disambiguate, which is already done on kowiki. I really don't see any community (or potential contributors) here outside few Chinese contributors, so if they want to take care of the stuff, good luck with that. — regards, Revi 20:13, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Hi, thank you all for providing the discussion ways, but here I also have a "No, thanks" case: I would just say "No, thanks" to either Wikia or Miraheze for Hanja, because there are really living peoples who can write, speak, communicate with, and (don't surprise) teach Hanja in Northeast China and nearly all Korean Peninsula, plus, many railway and metro stations in South Korea also has Hanja on their station name boards, their signal systems and ticket systems (Dalian metro also plans to do so, afaik), which are therefore and thereafter meaning that Hanja is still deeply rooted living in every South Korean peoples. Thus we would really need to consider Hanja as a separate languoid, that not suitable for a non-WMF contribution ecosystem. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:15, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
  • For the first two questions which Steven asked below, I'd love to say, that said, this is really something that was happened in Romanian, that community members always veto any potential convert ways (see link for what this is pointed to) due to the nationalism in this area. So there's an "Amazon Prime"-like good way, to just build a separated Hanja contribution group from the de-facto kowiki contributing members. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:26, 7 June 2019 (UTC)