Talk:CIS-A2K/Draft Work plan July 2014 - June 2015
As last discussed at TERI, I would request to CIS for look for our Bengali OCR development. As you same proposed at for Odia India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Odia#Font_and_software_building. Jayantanth (talk) 16:45, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
- Dear Jayantanth, thanks for your continuous engagement with our plans. As discussed over the phone we will certainly explore this for Bengali and other Indic languages, like we proposed for Gujarati Wikisource. However, currently we do not have any active leads, so would prefer to commit to a plan as and when we get a lead.--Visdaviva (talk) 17:59, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
- Dear all,i want to be part of this project .I am member of wikipedia glam nm project.tanushree sachhar.Please tell me the procedure to join the project.thanks.Template:Tanu sachhar
- If you are interested to developed Bngali OCR, Please mail me. Jayantanth (talk) 18:26, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Budget, CIS support rationale and Assessment by WMF
Thanks for the elaborate work plan.
1. The way the budget is presented at
is misleading. A good percent of this budget will be spent on staff salary, travel logisitics and other things which will not be there if the work is done by the community. So, this is not the actual cost needed for the desired output but the cost arising because of the involvement of paid professionals.
So besides this way of presenting the budget, there should also be a regular way of presenting budget like how the chapters are asked to submit during FDC application. It can be noted that during the last round of FDC funding application, WMIN faced very strict criterion regarding infrastructure cost, staff salary cost.
2. I have an eerie feeling that the community development work in India is getting outsourced to NGOs like CIS at the cost of crippling budding local chapters like WMIN. The way Hindi Wikipedia seeks help for content management (fixing Google articles) confirms my concern.
3. Where can I find WMF's open assessment of the work done by CIS-A2K in the previous year? How is the cost for the work done justified? If the cost if justified, then the actual communities and the content they have developed on their on own are worth many crores of Indian rupees. But, we face strict guidelines when applying for grants whereas NGOs like CIS don't have that strict criterion. --Ravi (talk) 06:50, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Ravi, thanks for engaging with the work plans and the questions. Have tried to address some within the context of the work plans.
- Budget: We had shared a google spreadsheet which gives a micro level picture of the Budget against each of the planned activity. Also each plan has an independent budget and is closely mapped on to the implementation plan, and clearly lists the proposed expenses for CIS-A2K staff costs and travel costs. An attempt is made to correlate why we are spending a certain amount on a certain activity. Thus all these budgets are very optimally planned and the overall budget is an assimilation. CIS-A2K chose this design to provide mission level transparency to our work and to provide a clear structure of accountability to the movement and community. However, based on your feedback we have realized that it would be useful to also give item-wise break-up. We have given this budget break-up here. Please let us know if this is fine.
- We feel it is more productive to see the complementarity between the WMIN and CIS-A2K than to pitch them as competitors for financial resources. The later would undermine trust-building and consequently threatens the growing synergies between WMIN and CIS-A2K. It is particularly intriguing that outsourcing is being mentioned here as a model. Would be useful to have more clarity and larger discussion on these. Probably, it would be apt to raise these broader concerns on CIS-A2K's FDC proposal discussion page. Cheers.--Visdaviva (talk) 11:53, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Hi Vishnu, thanks for the Google Spreadsheet and the details at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Budget#Budget_as_per_Expenditure_Heads . I will continue the discussion at CIS-A2K's FDC proposal discussion page. --Ravi (talk) 13:26, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
In this page, work done so far:
- You have mentioned 7 points. The 4th one, you are just listing the filed bugs, and the list is not getting updated regularly.
- Point 1; how many system messages were there for Echo! :D
- I don't agree with Points 2,6,7; that you have done anything. Provide links.
- Point 5; the ULS was out for a week or two. Why are you listing such minor issues? Are you out of issues to mention?
- Please focus on the topics/issues, which the team is capable of; like Indic input, Font rendering, ULS, VE..
- Please don't mention every little tiny thing that you do. The community will notice your works, you don't need to mention these. Keep these pages short and precise, you really think volunteers have the time to go through all these work plan pages!! I'm writing here to keep all the discussion at one page, i don't think users are reading all these pages! -- ɑηsuмaη «Talk» 05:15, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- Dear ɑηsuмaη, thanks for taking time out to go through critically on the work plan. Here are some of the answers to your queries -
- * Sorry for the lapse in updating the status of reported bugs. Thanks for pointing it. I have updated the status.
- * We helped in rolling out the Echo message notification system for Indic Wikipedias by way of facilitating the translation of strings.
- * It is wrong to say that ULS was out just of a week or two. It was out for nearly 45 days. --Pavanaja (talk) 12:19, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
<Please leave your feedback on the overall plan document above>
Bangla Work Plan
- How about if we totally develop the wiki-voyage project in Bengali?? It will be a nice work then!!! If it is totally developed! TechnoAyan (talk) 05:05, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
- Hi TechnoAyan, thanks for going through the Bangla plans. Currently CIS-A2K's mainstay is on Indic Wikipedia and Wikisource projects. But we are open to suggestions about including other sister projects. Could you share more of your thoughts on why and how Wikivoyage in Bangla should be invested upon? --Visdaviva (talk) 07:38, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
Suggestions by Pasaban
I have some suggestions as below, -
- Suggestion: Lets concentrate on expanding and making it more exhaustive for Bangla Ovidhan.
- Reason: There is no decent online Bangla dictionary, let alone complete. Am saying this keeping in mind the Samsad one.
- GLAM - Libraries
- Suggestion: Lets take all copyright expired Bangla books to digital world. I have a plan around it.
- Reason: The golden age of Bangla literature has mostly served its term under copyright. It would be better if we can bring that to online.
- GLAM - Museum
- Suggestion: Lets collaborate with Victoria Memorial, Indian Museum-Kolkata etc. To digitise all the history of Bangla as a whole. Here I am considering all the three roots of Bangla - West Bengal, Bangladesh and Tripura.
- Reason: First of all, it's a blessing in disguise that we do not have much Museum-like establishments that we need to tap to find out our history. Secondly, our museums are in general very poorly managed (my personal view); hence unless they are digitised, we will have hardly anything to pass down as a legacy of our forefathers.
- Suggestion: We can have an online course of Bangla as a language.
- Reason: There are many second generation Bengalies in abroad who might find it useful.
- Suggestion: We can target and finish the BanglaOCR project at (https://code.google.com/p/banglaocr/).
- Reason: This would be very helpful in GLAM - Libraries suggestion above.
- Hi Pasaban, we appreciate the above suggestions, which are all excellent! We are in complete agreement with you about the rationale for working on these ideas. However, we would like to think through some of these suggestions with you.
- Given that we have limited resources at our disposal and a relatively smaller community of volunteers in Bangla, would it not be better to prioritize the main stay projects like Bangla Wikipedia and Wikisource? Would it make strategic sense to invest in Wikitionary and Wikiversity? Probably it would be best to give need based support to these projects. Is there any specific requirement that CIS-A2K could immediately support?
- Wikiversity and online course of Bangla... appreciate the idea. But it looks like a long way around to grow the Bangla community, if you were intending to suggest that we can get the second generation Bengalis abroad onto the Wikimedia projects. If it is simply to offer a language course using the Wikiversity platform, we could suggest it to some potential Bangla departments and leave it there, than to take it upon ourselves. Let me know if I misunderstood your suggestion.
- Partnering GLAM institutions is an excellent idea. We have listed some potential institutions and some measurable goals. We could certainly include the institutions suggested.
- Bangla OCR: CIS-A2K will be quite keen to help in whatever way possible. We do not have internal technical expertise. As per our understanding OCR for Indian scripts is quite a complex task and an effective OCR is not that easy to come by. However, we will be open to suggestions by the Bangla community to invest in a resource after a thorough due diligence. In the past we tried to support Tamil OCR development by a volunteer, but this has not progressed much beyond some exchange of e-mails. If the Bangla community is keen on identifying a resource, we need to ensure that the resource delivers in a time-bound manner. The other thing that CIS-A2K will explore, though not mentioned in the plan, is to see if there is any (relatively effective) existing Bangla OCR (was told about ISI, Kolkata efforts) and try to get some licenses to be used for Bangla OCR. See for instance, the proposed Gujarati Wikisource project.
- Thanks again for these suggestions! Would welcome more discussion on how and where we can add value to the Bangla Wikimedia projects and community.--Visdaviva (talk) 05:41, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Suggestion by Jayanta Nath
Apart from Pasaban, I am adding few ideas and suggestion
- Hi Jayanta, thanks for engaging with the plan very closely and for the suggestions. Would like to think through some of the ideas and your long time association with the Bangla projects will be of great help. Thanks!--Visdaviva (talk) 07:06, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
1. Digital Library of India & West Bengal Public Libraries Network : There are already lots of resources with wrong meta data. As you know very well it is Govt Website ( navigation, downloading feature , online reading very poor). So you can contact with the DLI & WBPLN and collect all data with CD/DVD/HDD and upload in Archive.org (with proper meta data) and transfer commons ( this is the present cycle). This is not for Bengali Wikipedia, it can be very helps for all Indic Wikisource project.
2. Recruit/contract one dedicated software developer stuff for developed Indic OCR. First year target both Devnagari (http://code.google.com/p/parichit/ served Sanskrit Hindi Marathi and more ) and Bengali Font. ( it will served Bengali, Assumese and Manipuri Languages) Target (https://code.google.com/p/banglaocr/) as open sourced Google Tecerract. Personally I can help to developers because I have been using this from 2009, its working 50-60%. This Bangla OCR already installed in Bengali Wikisource proofreading page.
3. Finished the School of Cultural Texts And Records (SCTR) project of Jadavpur. Collect the all data. I know now its online. as bichitra. The problem is same as Govt Website.
4. Again try to explore National Library of India and Asiatic Society of India, Kolkata. Because they have all copyright expired Bangla books ( including all Indic language Book). Pasaban's GLAM - Libraries proposed will not successful as said Suggestion: Lets take all copyright expired Bangla books to digital world. I have a plan around it.
- Please read the below points sequentially to the above points.
- Completely understand the problem you state about DLI catalogue. We have encouraged a Telugu volunteer to take up this project, rather than doing it internally at CIS-A2K. Do you think we could do something similar for Bangla? We could come in with necessary technical and other support if a Bangla volunteer is keen to take up this task. @Wikitanvir: would this be of interest to you?
- Could you please see the discussion on OCR above and give further inputs?
- As shared in the plan we now have a formal agreement with SCTR. AFAIK the detailed catalogue of the content with SCTR is not available in the public domain. Could you please point to the specific location, if you have seen it? Thanks.
- Jayanta as we have discussed before, these are large institutional behemoths and are difficult to engage. We are open to trying again. However, it may be better for us invest these energies on partners like SCTR, which we know could be successful. Probably, it is good for us to collectively arrive at an institutional priority list using a matrix, before we go further with this. As you know building institutional partnerships is a very time consuming task. My only concern is not to bite more than what we can chew, especially given the small size of the Kolkata based community, especially someone like you, who is already stretched a lot. Let's discuss this more and arrive at a more realistic and achievable milestones that we could collectively achieve in the next one year.--Visdaviva (talk) 07:06, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
5. Fixed the bug 28206 ASAP for the Indic Community. Your present staff Rahmanuddin Shaik can do this or can give some ideas about the issues.
6. Monetary Support to community: Kolkata or Bangla Commuty try to organized Meetup/workshop every month with tentative budget 5000/-per month. ( You had already proposed this at 12 offline monthly meetings/events at "Implementation Plan" section India_Access_To_Knowledge/Draft_Work_plan_July_2014_-_June_2015/Bangla#Capacity_Building_Meet-ups
7. During Kolkata Bookfair project we had registered 1200+ visitors who are wished to contribute Bangla Wikipedia. We can capitalized them with regular followup.
8. We had a celebration plan for Bangla Wikipedia 10th Anniversary this year.
9. Personnaly I had talk with Department Head of Bangla at Calcutta University & Presidency University.
- Hi Jayanta, thanks for these ideas, which are immensely useful. Some updates and thoughts below.
- Yes, we are actively following this bug. We are hopeful to resolve this and of course Rahim has been looking into this and hopefully will bring it to a closure.
- Yes. Precisely. Let's do it in a transparent manner.
- This is an excellent idea!
- Could you let know how CIS-A2K can help support the Bangla community? Needless to say such community events are a very good opportunity for introspection and planning.
- Glad to see that you are actively exploring institutional partnerships! Let's include Presidency University too in the list of potential partners to explore. What is the outcome of your meetings with them?
- Cheers--Visdaviva (talk) 07:50, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
10. You should break up all budget main head.
- Hi, where-ever possible we have given a detailed break-down of the budget items. The rest of the budgets like "Volunteer Support", "Events/Meet-ups" are optimal estimates based on the spending patterns during the last year. Do you have a question on any specific line-item?--Visdaviva (talk) 07:54, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
We have to more active and truthful.
Hindi Work Plan
- How about including a plan to improve the google translated articles on hindi wikipedia using the institutional tie-ups? There are over 680 articles in w:hi:श्रेणी:गुगल परियोजना. Most of them contain a lot of content translated using google translate from the english wikipedia, and need collaborative editing to fix them.
- Preparing a basic fact sheet about hindi wikipedia and sending it out to various media houses as a press release might help in generating some awareness.
- Hi Siddhartha Ghai, thanks for engaging with the work plan and sharing very useful suggestions. We will certainly implement the first suggestion and try to improve these articles. Would it be nice to send the Hindi Wikipedia fact-sheet along with a write-up about it during some occasion like Hindi Diwas? In our experience, sending press release about Indic Wikipedias and Wiki events (like Language Day or Women's Day, etc), around an occasion got good responses.--Visdaviva (talk) 17:35, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Kannada Work Plan
The overall plan looks impressive, but too much of dependence on students, or making Wikipedia contributions a part of academic requirements could have a negative impact too.
Students will probably look at it just as an assignment and may not retain interest after the formality is completed. Also, the effect of these exercises could be temporary as we need to target new batches every year. Nevertheless, there is no doubt that such activities will bring in the much needed quantity of content into Kannada Wikipedia.
In addition to students, we can also think of targeting people who write regularly for the print media in Kannada. There are many writers who contribute articles on topics like places of interest, local specialities etc. By taking their help, we can ensure steady content addition to Kannada wikipedia. Sessions like the one planned for science articles can be conducted for them too.
Also, can we look at having projects with smaller scope? For example, a project on 'Hoysala Temples of Hassan District' would be much easier to complete and needs involvement from lesser number of people than a big-bang project on 'Temples of Karnataka'. It might also be easy to recognize people who complete projects - and that will probably motivate more people to take up similar activities.
Work plan is good and very hopeful about rapid growth of Kannada wikipedia. Below are some suggestions to adapt according to the feasibility.
- Regarding Institutional Partnerships, colleges in Shivamogga district can be approached, where there are many students and professors with good interest in these kind of activities and have good Kannada writing skills.
- Karnataka Vanijya Mandali or Karnataka Chalanachitra Academy (and/or any authority related to KFI) can be approached to make all the new Kannada movie pages to be included as soon as those are released. All Production houses or Directors (at the time of registration and release) can be informed (through Vanijya Mandali) to add a Wiki page on respective movie!!
- Advanced training (technical things, other background activities apart from adding content) sessions for interested people.
- Approaching & training columnists, authors or people (who write informative stuffs in print media), so that contents can be added regularly by them.
- Thanks for the valuable feedback. Please pass on any links for colleges in Shivamogga. Last year I did try approaching Karnataka Film Chamber of Commerce (KFCC) and Karnataka State Film Academy. The response was lukewarm from KFCC. There was a positive response from one member of Academy. But then many academies were reconstituted and he was no more a member. Will try to find some leads again. There was a proposal to train journalists and columnists through the Karnataka Media Academy last year. Then again due the election and change of government, change in academies, that could not take place. Hope to see some progress this year.--Pavanaja (talk) 05:42, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
With due respect, I have removed my name from contributor list as I have not involved in designing the program plan.
Kiran Ravikumar 23 April 2014, 18:56 (UTC)
- First of all, I would like to apologise for including the names of Omshivaprakash, Kiran Ravikumar and M G Harish in the draft work plan as contributors, without taking the consent to include the names. I had telephonic discussions with Omshivaprakash, Kiran Ravikumar, M G Harish and also with others whose names have been mentioned in the plan on what activities and projects can be planned for next year. Everyone gave their ideas and suggestions. I am thankful to everyone who gave their very valuable inputs. I made the draft plan based on these inputs and my own ideas as well as the experience of running the program for one year. Sorry, if the wordings gave a different kind of interpretation. --Pavanaja (talk) 09:29, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Reviewer / advisor group
I suggest setting up of a group of reviewers and advisors, who can guide people who create / edit Wikipedia articles in Kannada. People who are proficient in writing technical / historical / financial / geographic / human resources / business / general science articles in Kannada can help review the articles, suggest corrections and also provide tips on how best to write such articles, whenever their help is sought.
Konkani Work Plan
Marathi Work Plan
Thank you so much for including Marathi.
- Any plans for underprivileged community? (Offline Wikipedia, Spoken Wiki etc)
- Are you planning 'Train The Trainer' kind of programs for community?
- How we (as a community) can help CIS-A2K team? AbhiSuryawanshi (talk) 16:09, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
- Hello AbhiSuryawanshi. Thanks for engaging with the Marathi work plan.
- We have planned for some resources like Offline Wikipedia, etc. in various Indian languages, including Marathi Wikipedia. These will be taken up under a separate initiative call Creating Movement Resource. Let us know if we can further improve these plans.
- Yes, we are doing the "Train the Trainer" programme. In addition to this we are also planning 2 other Community Strengthening Initiatives for which the plans are here. Please share your feedback on these too in the respective discussion pages.
- Thanks for showing interest to help. The community can help by: a) giving continuous constructive feedback; b) hold us accountable; c) participate in the planning and executing of the programmes wherever possible; d) ensure that the movement resources are optimally utilized by CIS-A2K. --Visdaviva (talk) 08:59, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Odia Work Plan
Telugu Work Plan
Community Strengthening Initiatives
Nurturing Mediawiki and Tech Talent in Indic Communities
This page is for discussions related to the CIS-A2K/Draft Work plan July 2014 - June 2015 page.
Please remember to:
As an English Wikipedia community member, I have few comments here—
- Over-all so far, mainly English Wikipedia guys or Meta Tech guys take responsibilities to work on MediaWiki management. Sysadmins and global sysops also work on various things.
- During the Kolkata Bengali Wikipedia event, few admins from Nepali and Maithili Wikipedia approached me and asked about installing Twinkle and other things. As, I have experience of MediaWiki management (my previous job was that thing — MediaWiki management (non-server side)). Anyway, I asked these Nepali or Maithili Wikipedians' question to Mr. Stradivorious and Jackmcbarn, two of the best guys managing some of the most difficult parts like Module editing, MediaWiki management on the English Wikipedia (note: Mr. Strad is a good friend and mentor of mine, and he was my RFA nom too, I discussed on these things to him over email too) Please see the online discussion here. Now, it might sound absurd that you are talking about basic steps, and I am requesting you to handle some of the most difficult issues. YET, as CIS-A2K team has taken the responsibility, may I request your team to check these Nepali or Maithili Wikipedia issues soon? It might be bad if we ask them to wait for few months to fix their Wikipedia issues (currently they have no contact with me, but, I'll surely contact them, if I find some answers to their queries).
- From point 2, let's start point 3, another very weird idea, I hope, being an En WP editor, where I need to communicate to mainly non-Indians (my best friends and mentors on WP are non-Indians), I do ZERO care about whether you speak Bengali/Hindi or Hebrew. So, may I request CIS-A2K team to attempt to make the event "Global" in scope. I have immediate 3-4 names in mind, who are living in the US/UK, BUT they are steadily working on MediaWiki bugs, or helping Indian communities too (you'll often find Mr. Strad fixing script pages on your own Indian Wiki. Could we call them too? Possible? Look, there are two groups a) one who just participate in an event, b) one who is really deserving, but can not participate for broder-country etc. issues. I have complete trust on the CIS-A2K team, and I STRONGLY feel, by doing this, you'll get much much better outcome. I'll volunteer to do all co-ordinations there.
- The "Implementation plan" seems incomplete at this moment. The worst MediaWiki error "Lua error/Script error" is not included there. Anyway, I'll discuss these later.
- Are you planning to launch a test-wiki or something like that? ANYTHING related to MediaWiki tutorial will require extensive practical works. It just will not be possible teach everything from MediaWiki set-up to Lua programming language in just one week or so.
Regards. --21:10, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks Tito for engaging with the proposed plans and for the suggestions. We will factor these in before we commence planning for the workshop.--Visdaviva (talk) 18:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Train the Trainer Program
Just a comment. I think this is a really essential aspect of a major project like yours and allows individuals to develop skills to bring Wikipedia back to their institutions. I would advise partnering with a library or archives or cultural council that looks after multiple institutions, and doing a train-the-trainer program with them. This is how my work has been facilitated at the Metropolitan New York Library Council and this model has been quite successful. Please contact me if you would like to talk more about train-the-trainer events as I have some good materials and tips. Great proposal otherwise. Thanks for the detail. It would help to have more names/usernames attached to the projects so we can think more about governance and who is doing the reporting. But I also know some of that might not get figured out until you are sure you have the grant. Thanks! OR drohowa (talk) 22:24, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
- Hello OR drohowa, your suggestion of partnering with multiple institutions for Train-the-Trainer program is very valuable. We have been exploring this but the GLAM context in India is rather complicated, but we are not giving up :) Thank you for sharing your work with NY Library Council. Looks fantastic! Will be grateful if you could share the materials and tips. Will write to you off-wiki, soon. Appreciate if you could keep engaging with our work. Thanks again!--Visdaviva (talk) 15:03, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Visdaviva. Looking forward to your email. I'm at email@example.com. My associate at Wikimedia NYC, User:blueraspberry, Lane Raspberry and I are hoping to engage more in your work and offer our support, grant-reviewing etc. for your projects in whatever way we can! Cheers, OR drohowa (talk) 15:42, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
Wiki-Data India Marathon
Stand-alone Wikimedia Projects
Med GLAM Project
Notified WikiProject Medicine on English Wikipedia
I just told WikiProject Medicine on English Wikipedia about this project. Thanks for organizing it. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:44, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you Blue Rasberry. Wish you a fantastic 2015! --Visdaviva (talk) 18:39, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Wiki Loves Public Art (India)
100 Books on Gujarati Wikisource
It seems Perfect. We can go ahead. sushant
Urdu WEP at MANUU
Odia Wikisource as OER
Making the Tulu Wikipedia Live
Making the Santali Wikipedia Live
Telugu Wiki Bus
The idea of the project is super. But while implementing the project on ground level correct path should be chosen. First preference (to explain/ demonstrate) should be given to the elderly persons associations such senior citizen associations, New paper readers club/ magazine clubs, read clubs / libraries,/ local women associations or clube etc., / Teachers community/ and colleges etc., Mandal level/ district level offices etc. It is also suggestible to engage one or two persons from the local areas during the local trips so that they could guide the bus team properly. Bhaskaranaidu (talk) 02:25, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you Bhaskaranaidu garu for engaging with our work plans. Appreciate the suggestions which are very useful. We are thinking on similar lines. Before we begin this activity we will do an active consultation with the Telugu Wiki community about the route to be chosen and involve as many interested Wikipedians as possible.--Visdaviva (talk) 08:09, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Creating Movement Resources
Publicity, Research and Documentation
I am not seeing a reactive component to the media strategy here. Have you given any thought to things like responding to misinformed/misleading coverage of Wikipedia or Wikimedian activity, e.g. by sending letters to the editor, commenting online (formally and openly), seeking interview opportunities to respond/correct ongoing stories, etc.? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 05:15, 1 July 2014 (UTC)