User talk:Sänger

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Hello, Sänger. Welcome to the Wikimedia Meta-Wiki! This website is for coordinating and discussing all Wikimedia projects. You may find it useful to read our policy page. If you are interested in doing translations, visit Meta:Babylon. You can also leave a note on Meta:Babel or Wikimedia Forum if you need help with something (please read the instructions at the top of the page before posting there). Also worthwhile acquainting yourself with the functions of global user pages. Happy editing!

--Muzammil (talk) 10:41, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

About the consultation format

This discussion - thought I'd perhaps encourage you in thinking how to design this properly in Flow. Some thoughts here; in my personal view, leaving the discussion on the same page, but downvoting it, would suffice. This is what helps Reddit to structure its discussions. This would also keep all discussions pertaining to a subject on its talk page, where interested people can find them instead of ugly "/Other" subpages. --Gryllida 22:42, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you

I just wanted to say thank you. :) You've been really helpful with keeping the consultation functional for people (including adding translations, I see), and this morning (well, morning for me, if not everyone) I followed your example with moving a section header into the section to which it applied. I thought that was a good approach. I know you aren't happy with everything the WMF does and has done, but I'm personally really hopeful that this consultation will bring out some suggestion that will help us pull together better as a team. I think we need that, to keep our projects great. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 15:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I second what Maggie wrote, and meant to write here earlier. I greatly appreciate the cleanup edits, and the translations, and just having more editors be interested enough to read the wide variety of comments we're getting at Talk:2015 Strategy/Community consultation. Thanks. :) Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 20:45, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

		The Strategy Barnstar
		The Strategy Barnstar for work related to the 2015 Strategy Consultation - specifically for work with keeping the page organized and working with those who comment to ensure that their voice is heard. Thank you. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 20:58, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

@Mdennis (WMF):@Quiddity (WMF):@Philippe (WMF):
Thanks for all this, but a bit more cooperation, and a clear apology towards deWP would have helped more. Superputsch, i.e. the declaration of war by the WMF against deWP, still stands, as well as the non-compliance with the clear MB out of pure vain.
Since a week now nobody of the millionaires in Frisco could provide useful information about the conception process of the completely useless "feature" Special:UserProfile, or even show some better discussion place but the imho completely wrong talk page of Lila. I don't think Lila was there at that time, and afaik even Maryana wasn't, bit are you really so completely disorganized, that nobody in your millionaires-club can find the origins of this piece of software, and the vast discussions with the communities about this community-centric "feature", that have to be somewhere? ♫ Sänger - Talk - superputsch must go 19:25, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Thoughts

Sänger, I've been thinking about your comments (here and elsewhere over the last few months) a lot, and will try to collect a few of those thoughts here.

Wikimedia needs people like you who can challenge assumptions and actions and make sure that differing opinions are heard. I appreciate your criticism and concerns, and I hope you will keep it up, but I'd like to ask you to try to make it less negative, and less about the people. As this thread shows, that negativity can discourage everyone, not only the few staff with whom you're angry.

More than that, I think the way you're describing all the staff is unfair. I regularly work between 9 and 11 hours a day, as do the majority of the people I work closely with at the WMF. (I interact daily with about a dozen people.) Many of us consistently spend a few hours over the weekend working as well. I've only taken about 5 days off in the 18 months since I joined. There are dozens of staff who are also editors or volunteer developers, many from before they were ever hired, and who continue to contribute as volunteers outside of their employed roles. Around 40% of the staff don't live in California, but are scattered all over the world. The staff that do live in or near San Francisco almost all have 20-60 minute train rides to get to work, because they can't afford to live closer. Salaries are reportedly aimed at 50% of the range for non-profits, and many are working for less money than they could get at other jobs. We're normal people, working as hard as we possibly can, because these projects and mission inspire us the most in all the world. I really encourage you to continue to share criticism and suggestions and requests, but I don't think any staff deserve to have their motivations doubted or insulted.

Of course, you're not always going to agree with something the Foundation does (whether a specific decision, or a software team's many small decisions in each feature, or the timing of something, or etc). I don't always agree with things the Foundation does. There are thousands of small and large disagreements (and personality differences, and mistakes, and successes) throughout the Foundation, just as there are in the communities and the rest of humanity. Of the many decisions, edits, and software-features made (by all of us) every day, it's only natural that I (or anyone) will consider some great, some normal, and some terrible, on a scale that differs for every individual. The more complicated an issue is, and the more important, the more disagreements there will be. The terrible danger of over-simplifying these disagreements, is that the details get lost, and extremism can form ("black or white", "with us or against us"), and it can result in de-personalizing people (the removal of empathy) which makes it easier to casually insult them.

We need critics who can challenge the WMF and make sure everyone remains aware of the diverse needs and opinions of users, and of problems with software or anything else. It's obvious how much you care about the projects and how hard you work towards them. I would never want that to change. But I would really like to ask you to try to help keep the focus on the issues and the problems, and more on improving them, so that we don't divide into extremes and thereby find it even harder to come together to find solutions. Collecting and curating and making-available the sum of all human knowledge is one of the greatest and most complicated projects our global civilization has, and it's never going to be easy or simple or perfect.

Sincerely and exhaustedly, Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 06:36, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

@Quiddity (WMF): The WMF is a multi-million-dollar enterprise that has taken over the community-run Wikiverse in a hostile way. Of course not all people at the WMF behave this way, but the general direction is such. They are more interested in fancy software projects than in supporting the core of the Wikiverse, which is the content provided by the community. In an ideal world the WMF would lend their professional support to projects asked for by the communities. It would do it's work as the supporting agency of the communities, and never ever act in a way that suggests any superiority about the real bosses: the communities.

Unfortunately they have proven otherwise, especially with big projects.

• The VE was forced on the communities in a destructive way far too early, just to make timetables by the developers look fine, without any regard for the consequences for the project. They had to be forced to retract from this enormous error, they probably would not have seen it themselves in their blindness.
• The MV was forced against the explicit will of deWP and enWP with aggressive methods, even though it was definitely not ready for prime time, they only engaged the communities afterwards, they locked the stable door after the horse has bolted. They even invented some new superputsch-device to smother any dissent. They never apologized for their repulsive behaviour, there was absolutely no reaction to the 1000 subscribers to the page in my sig, nothing. The WMF just sat it out and hoped for time to calm the water and the communities to forget that aggression towards them.
• Superputsch itself, a clear vote of distrust towards the unwashed masses, that should bow to those highnesses in SF and not dare to have opposing views. It was followed by Superban, where prolific editors where completely banned under a shroud of secrecy that would make any dictatorship envious. Of course many would never trust the WMF just because of their nice blue eyes, at least the stewards must have a look into this, or it's just absolutism.
• Now some futile, half-baked, forum-impersonation called Flow is in development and is treated like the new redeemer. It doesn't sever any purpose but the unwanted further facebookisation of WP. It's not even remotely anything like a proper talk page. There are some fan-boys who promise the blue from the sky about this, but nothing useful has come to the light up to now. But resources are stuffed there instead of for example implement automatic signing in the proper talk pages, implement automatic indentation in the proper talk pages, make threads on proper talk pages somehow watchable... No, that would be maintaining and developing existing software, that's not sexy, that's too bothersome.
• The WMF acts against net-neutrality with WP0, that's just a marketing stunt by orange. It sounds like a good idea to give WP for free to mobile users, but the downside is the massive push against the far more important net neutrality. WP0 is not access to the knowledge of the world for free, it's just access to one selected provider for free, and if you look at some language WPs in dictatorships, where the state has practically taken over the WP. WP0 is paving the way to walled gardens, the very opposite of a free internet.
• The millions of dollars that are every year begged from users, readers and editors alike, under the false pretence of needing it to survive, go more and more to a self-propagating bureaucracy, just look at the escalating staff numbers. There's more than enough money in the coffers to survive for at least one decade, if the money will not go to useless pet-projects like MV and Flow but just to the core operation and maintenance of the servers.
• There are, of course, probably a lot good people in-between those escalating staff numbers, but methinks (gut feeling, no "metrics") minimum 95% of the work is done by unpaid volunteers, the communities. They should have the ultimate say about anything that's not strictly legal.

In short: Lot of trust has been lost by the WMF, they will have to work hard to regain it. They have to start rebuilding their reputation, as it was their fault, not the communities to spill the trust. As long as nothing happens in this regard (and no, this half-baked community consultation was, if at all, only a small first step, no great leap forward), nothing can be expected. ♫ Sänger - Talk - superputsch must go 10:48, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Edith says:

One more thing, that got me banned from phabricator: Sometime in the past someone in mobile decided to implement so-called UserProfiles, that are anything but user profiles, just some random collection of data. It was something that had to be discussed with the communities extensively, as it's by definition a community feature. I discussed it on phab, and was told, that phab is no place for discussion, but was not told, despite asking there and @Lila's, where the proper place should be. The programmers must know, as they must have discussed it beforehand. If not, they simply didn't act in a proper way. Up to now this completely rubbish software stands, no discussion in proper places (that's anywhere but phabricator, gerrit, mailing lists and other back-room venues, or CEOs talk pages) seem to have taken place. The only place someone showed me is vacated since 2013. ♫ Sänger - Talk - superputsch must go 11:50, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

The comments you reverted

The comments you reverted that I removed have nothing to do with my ego. They are an obvious attempt to derail the discussions by introducing comments and links that have nothing to do with them in the slightest. Further, Guy Macon has asked me to not post on his talk page which infers an interaction ban and as such it is not appropriate for them to continue to leave personal attacks on discussion I participate in with the obvious attempts to discredit me. Reguyla (talk) 13:45, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

You came to his discussion thread with some off-topic remarks and wonder about his reaction? You're quite detached from reality methinks. You're whole whining about being mistreated by some admins because of your massive sockpuppeteering doesn't help you the slightest, and links to the real history instead of your sanitized version are always helpful, as well as those hints about you to finally start some self-reflection. You spammed two discussions with your whining, and you proclaim to be some victim and not the spammer? Ridiculous! Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden)_{superputsch must go} 14:40, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I commented on multiple discussions about multiple things. He chose to spam identical insults directed at me on multiple pages. He could have asked me on my talk page to remove them, he could have chosen to make a comment that he felt they were off topic and could have chosen to do a lot of other things. He chose instead to post personal attacks. And you clearly do not understand my situation in the slightest. I wasn't banned or blocked for socking. I created the alternate accounts (and clearly identified they were from me when I posted) because I did not and do not recognize the ban that was repeatedly submitted and passed by less than a dozen people after they were told multiple times previously there was no consensus. So they just kept submitting until they got what they wanted. I am not whining nor am I claiming to be a victim, however I am clearly the target of retaliation by some on the English Wikipedia for my comments that admins should have to actually follow the rules. In fact the ENWP community already had a ban review and stated I should have been unlocked in February 2015 and some admins won't allow it. Reguyla (talk) 16:52, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah I see, you're a damsel in distress, and are waiting for the white knight (or was it right night?) to save you. Please don't try me, I'm no knight at all ;) Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden)_{superputsch must go} 17:13, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I am hardly a damsel in distress and I don't need any knights, white or other wise, to save me. I'm just not a sheep and I don't back down to bullies. When I am bullied I fight back and the ENWP wiki culture expects people to either put up with abuse or leave, which is why we are seeing the numbers of editors dwindling. I certainly don't think admins are the only ones being abusive and in fact its only a minority of admins. Really only about a dozen out of the 1300 or so admins, the problem is they are some of the most active and no one has the morale courage to stand up to them because they saw what happened to me when I did. Anyways, Cheers and see you around. Reguyla (talk) 17:50, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

• Please see Meta:Requests for help from a sysop or bureaucrat#Personal attacks from Guy Macon. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:46, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

yes. That looks fitting to the behaviour of this sockpuppettier. I don't think any remark is necessary. It's self-evident. Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden)_{superputsch must go} 06:52, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify, had the admins on ENWP done their jobs and dimissed my original block none of the extra accounts I created would have been done. Had the admins respected the community decision I be unblocked in February of 2015, I would not have created anymore. Its not my fault that neither the admins on ENWP nor the WMF have any respect for the community or their decisions. That's been shown time and time again and not my "behavior". My behavior was to not walk away from an obvious bully and I pushed back. That is my only crime. Caring more about the project than some admin with an ego bigger than their desire to improve the project. If you want to make snide comments about behavior then direct them at the ones that are the problem like the Arbitration committee on ENWP or the half dozen bullies that have abused their way to the top of the admin latter over at ENWP and the WMF that force everyone else to do what they want rather than whats best for the project...you know, like Superprotect, Visual editor, Media Viewer, etc. If you don't like me standing up for myself and the other editors that are getting plowed under the boot of a very small minority of individuals at ENWP that have no respect for the community then that's your problem, not mine. But your comments indicating I am some kind of vandal are insulting and unnecessarily provocative. Reguyla (talk) 18:39, 14 September 2015 (UTC)