User talk:Verdy p/archive12

Template:Main Page/WM News broken[edit]

Hi. It seems that with your changes to Module:Fallback you broke Template:Main Page/WM News. --Base (talk) 00:29, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing; unfortunately, there was a correct fix in the Fallback module (which has numerous issues, including non-conformance to BCP47 and broken/mismatching fallback lists) since long, but it was never applied.

Additions were even made later that made it even more inconsistant. This module then was separated from other functions, making the situation even worse.

The "nil" bug was unexpected; but this old broken version has no test module (unlike the Fallback module that was tested and fixed) that would have spotted this error:

there's a need to perform some tostring() conversions for UI messages, but using tostring() on nil returns the non-empty string 'nil' (instead of just nil) and I forgot it: as it was a non empty string, any fallback language tested but without actual translation would then return the string 'nil', instead of continuing to the default (in this case for example when formatting months, French would have not matched because there was no need to add an "fr=" case in the LangSwitch when it could behave like "en="; but the initial requested is also the first tested in the fallback chain: it ift does not exist, this"tostring()" would have returned the non-empty "nil" string. Thanks for pointing it. It's fixed. verdy_p (talk) 01:42, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notification de traduction : Communications/Wikimedia brands/2030 movement brand project/Naming convention proposals[edit]

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Notification de traduction : Template:2030 movement brand project nav/text[edit]

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Notification de traduction : Wikimedia Foundation Board noticeboard/Board Update on Branding[edit]

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Notification de traduction : VisualEditor/Newsletter/2020/July[edit]

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Notification de traduction : Trust and Safety/Case Review Committee/Charter[edit]

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Notification de traduction : Tech/News/2020/32[edit]

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Notification de traduction : Tech/Server switch 2020[edit]

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Active project item templates[edit]

Hello. I apologize for misunderstanding your edits a few days ago on the Active (project)/item templates. That said, I came up with a more unified version here. Some highlights:

I added documentation to explain how it works.
Parameters 1 and 2 are fully case-insensitive and must be filled in. (Since the point of the template is to create interwiki links, these parameters must be filled in.)
The existing templates will be kept, but will serve as wrappers to the new template.
Siberian is added to the list of custom-filled languages alongside Klingon and Toki Pona.
I moved the example you used noinclude tags on previously to a list of examples alongside some more examples.

What do you think? Should we swap this in or leave it off? -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 18:36, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Support[edit]

I have reverted this change of yours to the support template as you actually changed it quite a bit. You removed the word "support" from the template. Such a change would need some sort of discussion. Regards, --IWI (talk) 03:57, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No I DID NOT remove it, I added some whitespaces to allow translating to more languages (and added a few others) !!! verdy_p (talk) 04:10, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can you re-instate the boldness? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 05:09, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The way it was written and packed was strange (a switch within an if for the same variable, those caused confusion when adding languages). verdy_p (talk) 05:15, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Machine translation[edit]

Hi,

I'm not sure why did you create a Hebrew translation for {{Abstract Wikipedia navbox}}, but it looks like you copied some things from a dictionary and others from machine translation. There were a lot of mistakes there. Please don't do it, without at least consulting with somebody who knows the language well. Thanks! --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 15:07, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's mostly for testing the BiDi layout, it has not been validated. verdy_p (talk) 21:37, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

and anyway I copied existing translations (100% match) for variout terms. verdy_p (talk) 21:38, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Where else are these existing translations used? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 17:28, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

and eanyway youalso reviewed tyhem for just keeping what I used, you just dropped the diacritic vowel points for a few, even though they are not incorrect, just optional). Almost all was correct even in your own opinion. I did not translate any long sentence just basic terms, already found with the builtin search engine with 100% matches, I also double checked them in various sources (search engines, Wiktionnary, they all looked correct, so it was still a good start. Note that this was part of something that was not translated at all and just available in English: to review the translation process I needed to prefill some basic translation with what was existing, and lake sure thelayout was correct for Bidi, I just used Hebrew as it was easier to than Arabic). I have made the whole translatbility of this Abstract Wikipedia project, and was reviewed and thanked by the WMF itself for this work. It was important to make a complete test for that, I also provided the full translation to French.

As this is a start, all can still be reviewed, I won't oppose you, but be ready also to be exposed to critics from others that may not like your choice: you need to be able to negociate, and not formalize things too much when they are of minor importance, and if so you'll wind friends. Later may be they'll change their opinion or you'll change your own. a lot of things will change in this new project. verdy_p (talk) 17:37, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I corrected several grossly incorrect translations. If they appear anywhere else, they must be corrected there, too. Did they appear in translation memory? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 07:51, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Special:Diff/20514850[edit]

About your this edit, please can you have a look at File:MediaWiki_fallback_chains.svg? Under this chain, currently zh fallbacks to zh-hans but no inverse fallback, so by typing zh, neither of the variants users work. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 21:50, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The SVG does not speak for all. What matters is how the fallback are working (inside {{LangSwitch}} which is used there): both "zh-hant" and "zh-hans" are falling back to "zh", which itself fallbacks to "zh-hans". The SVG forgets one arrow... In summary, whan zh-hant and zh-hant are the samle value, you can just specify one in "zh" which is valid for both, no need to duplicate the value (and this is also how this is working for zh.wikipedia, including its transliterator where a singhle Chinese source can be used when there's no difference between simplified and tradiational, for most sinograms or words). For simplifying, the SVG cannot show the cycles and shows only the hierarchic tree, but there are also backward arrows from a parent node to one of its children. This is fully conforming to BCP47 as well (it is not on the graph betcause this is an implicit behavior required for conformance with BCP 47 itself, and even confimed in the IANA database for BCP 47 shiwh states that in the "zh" entry which also aliases to "cmn" i.e. Mandarin as its default mapping, whereas "zh" is a macrolanguage encompassing many Sinitic languages and not just Mandarin). verdy_p (talk) 23:44, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

sockpuppet of bishal khan[edit]

@Verdy p:, Dear metawiki administrators, I am a sockpuppet of User:Bishal Khan (globally blocked account), unblock my real account globally. পাভেল ক. (talk) 10:36, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a local admin, sorry ! verdy_p (talk) 10:37, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Personal taste vs. preferences[edit]

You reverted my change of the maximum width of a resolution page by the board from normal page use again to only use minor space in the middle of the screen with a maximum of useless whitespace right and left. Please refrain from such paternalism with your personal taste towards others. If you prefefr this Minimum screen-use, adjust your preferences, but don't bother others with this nonsense. Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden) 15:33, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's not an article but a verbatim letter. It's not a question of taste, everywhere you'll see that it's highly recommanded to make a long text with very large columns that are hard to read (the suggested maximum is usually about 36 em, at most 40em).

These letters are meant to be read vertically. And they are even sent bny email with similar limits. The extra margins don't matter, they collapse when needed so it remains readable as well on very narrow screens.

The form makes clear that this is a captured text whose content has officiel status from the WMF, which signs it formally. It is not meant to be "augmented" by users. verdy_p (talk) 15:38, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The extreme narrow scale you chose is perhaps fine for upright mobile screens, but not for normal monitors. This kind of paternalisation is bad behaviour. It's a wikipage, full stop. Everybody has their personal preferences, you are trying to octroy your personal taste on everyone, that's not fine. Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden) 15:59, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is NOT "extreme". Look at any book, and printed media of any size. Large screens are not suited for reading long texts, unless they are arranged in columns with the same constraints, and columns are properly scaled, or margin,s are used.

This is a very wellknown accessbility rule: very long lines of text (over 40em) are NOT easy to read on ANY device (recommendations are often a but narrower at 36em; note that this is is measured at EVERY font size of the main text).

So unless you want to add other contents on the side, it's still best to keep the width constrained to a maximum, even if there are margins. Good websites do that (but social networks and portals make use of the margins to place various navigation tools or ads, because then there's a use of those lateral margins). Press sites (and allprinted publications) respect this rule of 40em (including for smallprints, and very small font sizes or indexes which are then arranged in multiple columns to take that space).

But here for a single letter, it does not make sens to bezak it into columns.

In Wikipedia we accept such large columns (over 40em) only because they are suppose to be illustrated. But for evey long lists, also we use multicolumn for them, as it allows easier navigation with less scrolling.

Here there's not much scrolling, this is a single text and at its effective size of 40em, this still looks as a single page that is very easy to read. Anything larger causes accessiblity problems for many people. See WAIS for reference, and many docs/books/article discussing this for web design or document designs and typography. Ignoring accessibility rules on this wiki would be a bad choice.

Users can still zoom in/out according to their preference or viewing distance.

If you don't like these maring, find something to fit nicely in the margins (e.g. a vertical navbox or infobox, or an illustration, but make it clear that it is not part of the WMF's letter, which is neatly delimited in its scope). verdy_p (talk) 16:09, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed layout, anywhere, is bad. Be it fixed pixels in [[Datei:Beispielbild.jpg|250px]], fixed width in table columns or this here. Relative sizes, like 50% for the first column, 30% for the second and 10% each for the others, is fine, but fixed sizes only serve those, who have the personal affection to them. It's paternalizing to expect everyone to like those wastelan on the screen. If you like that, find something for yourself, for example simple make your browser more narrow. Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden) 16:53, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're wrong, widths in % are NOT accessible; all I made was just to place a maximum (it may be lower), not a fixed layout (it is dynamic, and adaptative for all users, while respecting the accessiblity rules). Note that the default font size of this wiki (also Wikipedia...) is also too small (smaller than the recommanded default), so the accessibility problem is even worse with too long lines that are hard to follow visually.

As I said, if we want to fill in the side margins left blank (when they exist, which is not necesarily true), we've got to use more columns, not enlarging the columns, and NOT fixing also the number of columns (this number must just adapt so that each column has a convient width, measured in "em" or "ex" or i.e. relative to the font size, and absolutely NEVER in "%" i.e. relative to the page content width, and also NEVER in "px" as this would be fixed and tyhis is reserved exclusively for floatting illustration images and lateral bars filling the margins). Overusing the margins for extending the column of text above 40em is absolutely always wrong.

Really you should document yourself about accessibility (you can do what you want on your user page, but on such page intended to be read easily for all users, accessibility prevails). verdy_p (talk) 17:01, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's a fixed max width, that leaves more then half the screen empty. It's probably fine for mobile usage with upright screens, but there, i.e. with the /m/ in the URL, you have those huge wastelands anyway.

You declare some strange layout, that is your personal taste, as something everybody has to have, you don't want to give others a choice not to agree with your personal taste, I regard that as extremely unfriendly and patronising. Without such personal fixed constraints everybody can chose the layout s/he wants in their personal preferences. You want to forbid me to use half of my screen.

If you do so here on your personal pages, it will be fine, it's your personal space, it's your personal decision. But on pages for everybody, everybody should have the choice themself for such layout questions. Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden) 17:18, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is not huge and the page is not long.And the fgorm of the page as a hardcopy of a formal letter is fine with it. If you have a large screen, you can as well use the extra width for other windows/tabs. But definitely reading a text with overlong lines is very difficult, if the text is not constained in a column. The amximum width still fits paragraphs neatly and offers a good measurement of how the text is structured; it allows faster reading as well (even "diagonally" with rapid eye), with less visual efforts to track the progress point. What do you want to fit in this width ? There's nothing else than this text for now. You can fill that space with illustrations or a vetical navbox/infobox, if there's one for that page, but still outside the content this letter that remains as is in its bordered box which "mimics" the appearance of letters on paper: when do you send printed letters or see books that use a single column of text with more than 40em ? Nowhere, it would not be respectful. 36 to 40em is a very standard measurement (36em is used for legal texts). As well the margins are convenient to place user annotations. (Even with traditional Asian text written vertically, there's a similar measure of about 40em max per vertical line of text, otherwise they are stacking vertically rows for exactly the same reason, but this is even more critical due to the grid layout of Han/Kanji/Hanja characters where it is not easy to keep the eye focused). verdy_p (talk) 17:24, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you like it that way, simply make your browser window more narrow, but don't restrict me because of your personal taste. I have no choice with that tiny max-width but to live with the huge wasteland, you have a choice, a very simple one, to adhere with your personal taste of extreme narrowness. (Something aside: Why don't you use the normal way of indenting, but go behind my indentation every time you post something? As if you don't answer to my last post.) Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden) 17:32, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Long indentations has no interest, when this is a sucession between two users, they can use each their own indentation alterating... As long as the order of discussions is kept, this is clearer.

And counting them is boring when it is not necessary. verdy_p (talk) 17:35, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You don't have to count, wiki does it for you if you use replying in your Beta preferences. It even autosigns your post. Grüße vom Sänger ♫^(Reden) 17:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Too many gadgets break the browser too often. I'm minimalist and against beta gadgets. verdy_p (talk) 17:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A request for translation[edit]

Hi! I've noticed you've done some translations from English to bahasa Indonesia. Would it be possible for you to translate some messages about the Community Wishlist Survey, starting from completing the invitation message? In CWS, individual experienced editors vote for useful technical improvements. This is a truly impactful project.

If you know other English-Indonesian translators, you can also share this request with them. Thank you! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 02:39, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@SGrabarczuk (WMF): I'm not good enough at Indonesian to provide long text translation. My contributions are very limited. There's visibly active translators in this wiki for Indonesian (you can see that in the text content part of the pages for the current votes for the Wiki of functions naming, it was done recently as these pages are mostly complete, including some weekly news, I suggest you contact them). verdy_p (talk) 07:55, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Lang[edit]

For the record, I did read the doc. In bold, it starts by saying:

Obsolete: please use {{PAGELANGUAGE}} magic word instead whenever possible.

If that is not the case, then change the doc. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 19:44, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is already explicitly written in the doc: Template:CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE. verdy_p (talk) 19:45, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It starts by saying the template is obsolete, so most people (like myself) assume the rest of the documentation is out of date. (Edit conflict.) –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 19:47, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The one that added this notice at top, did not care about reading why it was used. Many pages on this wiki will not be updated to use the translate tool, which appeared much later. And converting these pages would cause much work to transfer the existing translations which are kept as is for most of them.

So {{PageLang}} works all the time. Pages can be prepared witjh the translate tool but this is a slow process and for existing translations that are NOT direct translations (e.g. pages about local chapters whose primary langauge is not English and that detail specific things in their own languages), this is the only way. You cannot break all these pages which are still very active (and not "legacy"): people that maintain these pages in another primary langauge than English won't like we force them to create their primary work in English. And don't forget the words "whenever possible".

The performance cost is in fact minor, the module is quite simple and its calls are cached (one call maximum per rendered page; hiostorically this was not even a module but a real template), so its expansion is just some nanoseconds (and the cache is valid as long as pages are not refreshed, which occurs about once a week and only if they are visited). verdy_p (talk) 19:52, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing I did wrong here was blindly follow the template's documentation. If a template is obsolete, then it needs to be depreciated. However, as you pretty much made crystal clear to me with your first revert, the template isn't obsolete and should be used whenever needed. That's why I self-reverted where you had not already corrected my mistake.^[1][2]
Also, I am literally an admin on Scots Wikipedia. The language is spelled Scots. It isn't called "Scotish" or "Scotts". Either way, as I already explained, I translated the title 6 days ago. Can you please stop edit warring with me? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:05, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not "edit warring" you, you've made several different edits that I reversed for the same reason. I commented, you asked me here, I reply. Not readin the doc and applying changes blindly causes problems. I moved down this "obsolete" notice in the doc because it was explained since long. And the new magic keywords has had several incarnations, the tempalte name "Pagelang" is clear enough and shorter, easier to remember. The magic keyword was made this long onkly because of the many incarnations that existed before in various wikis under similar names. None of these wikis have suddenly declared their template is obsolete. And especiually on this wiki where there are TONs of community pages (notably pages for local chapters when they don't have their own separate wiki) where English is not the primary working language, and for tons of reports, or specific talk pages (which will never be translated verbatim, but have their own separate content for their own language). verdy_p (talk) 20:11, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Duplicate voting[edit]

Sorry for the duplicate vote! I thought "second round" meant everyone would vote again.--Sudonet (talk) 07:22, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The first round was several weeks ago for the pre-selection of 6 names in October. The second round (on the 6 names) is terminating today after 2 weeks. All is described in the pages since the begining.

The two rounds were on separate pages.

No problem: you can vote twice in the same round as stated, only the last vote counts as indicated (all votes for the 1st round of preselection are ignored) ! And your earlier vote was already on these 6 names for the second round. verdy_p (talk) 08:41, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Community Wishlist Survey 2021: Invitation[edit]

The 2021 Community Wishlist Survey is now open! This survey is the process where communities decide what the Community Tech team should work on over the next year. We encourage everyone to submit proposals until the deadline on 30 November, or comment on other proposals to help make them better. The communities will vote on the proposals between 8 December and 21 December.

The Community Tech team is focused on tools for experienced Wikimedia editors. You can write proposals in any language, and we will translate them for you. Thank you, and we look forward to seeing your proposals!

SGrabarczuk (WMF)

18:25, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Community Wishlist Survey 2021[edit]

We invite all registered users to vote on the 2021 Community Wishlist Survey. You can vote from now until 21 December for as many different wishes as you want.

In the Survey, wishes for new and improved tools for experienced editors are collected. After the voting, we will do our best to grant your wishes. We will start with the most popular ones.

We, the Community Tech, are one of the Wikimedia Foundation teams. We create and improve editing and wiki moderation tools. What we work on is decided based on results of the Community Wishlist Survey. Once a year, you can submit wishes. After two weeks, you can vote on the ones that you're most interested in. Next, we choose wishes from the survey to work on. Some of the wishes may be granted by volunteer developers or other teams.

We are waiting for your votes. Thank you!

SGrabarczuk (WMF)

16:09, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Notification de traduction : Wikimedia CH[edit]

Bonjour, Verdy p,

Vous recevez cette notification parce que vous vous êtes inscrit comme traducteur en français sur Meta. La page Wikimedia CH est prête à être traduite. Vous pouvez la traduire ici :

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Template:Lc-row[edit]

Hi, your edits broke the links to the two pages where "title =" is used in the template ("Wikipedia Punjabi (Romanized)" and "Wikipedia Sindhi (in Devanagari)"). Please fix. Also, can the prefix be hidden from the links again? --MF-W 22:02, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@MF-Warburg: That's strange, because the parameter titlle is not ignored: if it's set, it is displayed instead of parameter 1 (used for the target link).

Oh, I see, the modified title was used as well as the target of the link instead of parameter 1 (there was a non-evident trick as well with the "fake" #if test just used to trim the return value in the target link for the subpage name, I fixed it as well; I incorrectly interpreted this old "fake" test, and reapplied it to get the correct link). verdy_p (talk) 22:05, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]