Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Nahuatl Wikipedia 2

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This is a proposal for closing and/or deleting a wiki hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation. It is subject to the current closing projects policy.

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The proposal is rejected and the project will be kept open.

• A Language Committee member provided the following comment:
  From LangCom member Baba Tabita: further steps are still discussed but LangCom seems to have consensus not to close Nahuatl. Additional comment from clerk: LangCom is interested in further discussion about this subject. Shortly, a LangCom member will open a separate RfC on the subject, which will be announced here. Posted for LangCom by StevenJ81 (talk) 16:30, 6 November 2017 (UTC).

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• Type: 2 (non-routine proposal)
• Proposed outcome: closure
• Proposed action regarding the content: should be transferred to Wikimedia Incubator
• Notice on the project: nah:Huiquipedia:Tlecuitl#m:Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Nahuatl_Wikipedia_2
• Informed Group(s): Wikimedia México

PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE PROPOSAL BEFORE VOTING

However, the current Nahuatl Wikipedia serves no purpose.
Sin embargo, la wikipedia nahuatl actual no sirve para nada, ha sido un fracaso, no hay hablantes nativos editando aquí (los pocos que escribieron aquí, fueron ignorados cuando intentaron actuar activamente en su propia lengua) y se está despreciando la riqueza lingüística de las variantes o lenguas nahuas. He escrito lo siguiente en inglés para llegar a la audiencia más grande, si usted necesita una traducción a español pidalo antes de votar.

Previous Approach. Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Nahuatl Wikipedia

1. There are over 6000 articles. Created in Psedo-Classical Nahuatl by a handful of people whose self-ranking as speakers on Nahuatl is either nah-1 or nah-0, the majority of these articles are no more than two sentences long. Should we really allow such a huge Wiki written entirely by people who acknowledge (!!!) that they have such low abilities in the target language?
2. The current Wiki is written in Classical Nahuatl. en:User:Maunus, a linguist specialising in Nahuatl has testified (see nah:User talk:Battroid) that Classical Nahuatl is almost completely impossible to understand for modern native speakers of Nahuatl. This means that it is only readable to people who have studied Classical Nahuatl in universities, which would likely amount to no more than several hundred people, all of whom are likely to be much more fluent in Spanish and may not even have fluency in Classical Nahuatl. It is like writing a Wikipedia in Phoenician -- almost nobody knows the Classical language (although over 1 million speak the modern language).
3. In the current version of the ISO standard, nah is a language group rather than a single language. It is not the proper code for Classical Nahuatl. The proper code for the language variety used in this Wiki is nci. If this Wiki is kept, it does not belong at the current domain.
4. The current contributors seem very poorly informed about Native issues. One user in particular, a 15-year-old going by the name of "Fluence", has stated that there are no Natives left in Mexico and that they have been assimilated by mestizaje (mixing by marriage), despite the fact that the recent Mexican national census showed that 8% of the population of that country is full-blooded Native. This user says that he likes the language because it shows what Nahua culture used to be 600 years ago which apparently admirable, while everything since then is apparently irrelevant.
5. No native speakers nah:User:Fluence, nah:User:Marrovi, nah:User:Ricardo gs, nah:User:Akapochtli, nah:User:Battroid, nah:User:Cuaitl, nah:User:Varlaam.

1. Native speakers nah:User:Tepoxteco, nah:User:Teòtlalili.

Second Approach.

This category includes languages contained within the collection of languages known as the Nahuatl languages, ISO code nah. Unlike Spanish, English or Japanese, there is no single "Nahuatl language". Rather, what are described as "the Nahuatl languages" are a collection of related languages spoken in Mexico and Central America.

The Nahuatl languages consist of more than only Classical Nahuatl. Classical Nahuatl, ISO code nci, which was spoken and written in Spanish colonial period, is now extinct as a spoken language. Although there are no longer native speakers, there is an extensive existing literature written in Classical Nahuatl.

Modern Nahuatl languages (by some opinions, dialects) are living languages that are in some cases in the process of disappearing. The group working here in Incubator wants to make living Nahuatl languages known and available to all persons. This group does not feel that the existing Nahuatl Wikipedia (Huiquipedia) accomplishes this objective, as it is written in a combination of Classical and living Nahuatl languages using a standard orthography not necessarily correct in all Nahuatl dialects.

Nahuatl languages	Code ISO	Ranking	Metawiki
Central Huastec Nahuatl	nch	1	0%
Central Nahuatl	nhn	2	0%
Pipil (Nawat)	ppl	3	0%
Classical Nahuatl	nci	4	0%
Northern Puebla Nahuatl Wikipedia	ncj	0	0%
Orizaba Nahuatl	nlv	0	0%
Michoacán Nahuatl	ncl	0	0%
Temascaltepec Nahuatl	nhv	0	0%
Durango Nahuatl	nln	0	0%

To pass all small articles or stubs edited in Nahuatl Wikipedia (nah) to Incubator projects in diferent Nahuatl languages. Is very necessary to invite Nahuatl languages native speakers for Incubator projects, where we can to open various Nahuatl languages wikipedias.

Third Approach.

It is necessary to be respectful with the native speakers of the Nahuatl languages, it is not necessary to have a wikipedia in Nahuatl to revitalize a language in the process of extinction. We know that many Mexicans want a wikipedia of a language and our country, but unfortunately this wikipedia is not edited by true native speakers, only by fans of Nahuatl and Mexican Mestizo sysops, which does not really help at all read bad articles that do not understand the real speakers native people.

True native speakers have no control of Wikipedia in Nahuatl as their language, in their communities haven't selfish and petty values as blocking, verifying, blocking editions, eliminating editors or competing; these are not values of indigenous people, but they are values come from Mexican Mestizos that copy the same system of the wikipedia in Spanish.

The control of the Mexican mestizo on Wikipedia in Nahuatl has very annoying native speakers, they have not liked that the Mexican mestizos control this language, which has distorted the proper sense of their ancestral knowledge with articles as well nah:Gustavo Adolfo Becquer or nah:Nemachiyōtīlli:Calīxatl:Āxcāncāyōtl, they do not like that the Mexican mestizos do business with a language that belongs to the Nahuatl communities and that also provides of this obtaining particular benefits. Mexican mestizos must to help, don't control an Amerindian language with bad articles and bad stubs soported only in old Classical Nahuatl books. Nahuatl wikipedias must to be soported by modern Native speakers with diferent grammar rules used in their schools, universities and indigenous counsils as INALI or Asociación de Escritores de lenguas indígenas A.C.

Support deletion

1. Support delete. Nahuatl Wikipedia, don't edit by Native speakers, in this Wikipedia edit only Mestizo sysops and foreing people (no Mexicans), the articles don't understand by Native speakers from Puebla, Veracruz, Hidalgo, Guerrero, Durango, San Luis Potosí, Tabasco, Michoacán, México, Morelos and Mexico City. Nahuatl language is a Macro-language, no a specific language.--Marrovi (talk) 08:38, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

• Comment. If will be open Huiquipedia, I propose to nah:user:Tepoxteco and nah:user:Teòtlalili as main sysops of Huiquipedia, they are native speakers of Nahuatl languages, they could invite real native speakers to edit good articles in Nahuatl languages. Victoriano (Tepoxteco) [1] [2] and Maurilio (Teotlalilli) [3] are true Nahua speakers. They must to be sysops in Huiquipedia, Nahuatl is their native language.--Marrovi (talk) 11:46, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Oppose deletion

1. Oppose. I believe the proposal of closing is again about the writing system instead of the content and quality of the contentent. If that's the problem it has been proposed to move nah to nci; also it had been used tabs to add the different dialects. I don't get what's the relevance of the contributor's mestizo background, indigenous and mestizos people are both hiers, fully or partially, of a common ancestry and both groups had influenced each other's culture and language through time. If the issue is about not having nci native speakers, ang, got, la and cu neither have native speakers. To close the nah wikipedia would mean to loose the valuable work and efforts of the users that believe in this project. --Ricardo gs (talk) 21:57, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
2. Muy en contra. Los proyectos de la WMF buscan abrir los contenidos no cerrarlos. El punto debería hacer accesible los recursos digitales a todo el mundo; qué nuevos editores, no importando su origen, puedan aportar; consensuar todos los cambios en pro del proyecto. Mostrar la diversidad del idioma será muy enriquecedor al indicar la variante en que esta escrita pero no veo adecuado el crear diferentes wikipedias para el nah como no veo una necesidad de wp para el español de Norte , Centro, Sudamérica, España u otras regiones. petrohs (gracias) 22:51, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
3. Oppose - En contra. My comments below in the section "Doubts with proposal". --Salvador (talk) 00:07, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
4. Strongly oppose - Muy en contra. I have posted my comments in the section "Doubts with proposal". ----Maor X (talk) 19:15, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
5. Oppose - En contra. I see a lot of good arguments for improving the Nahuatl Wikipedia but none for deleting it. Dialectal or writing system problems is no reason for deletion, a lot of Wikipedia have similar problems and overcome them (for those I know : br.wikipedia.org has policies written agter lengthy discusion, nrm.wikipedia.org has a tagging system to indicate clearly which dialect is use on the page). VIGNERON * ^discut. 20:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
6. Strong oppose. The proposal is based on a personal opinion of an user who has been block from Huiquipedia, the wiki that he's trying to close. If the policies of Wikipedia indicates that none user can own the content of the articles, is the same here. The proposer is concern about the lack of native speakers in the Wiki, but since he's not a native speaker either, he can't choose such thing as delete an entire wiki.--Luisalvaz (talk) 02:51, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
7. Strong oppose - Muy en contra. Per @Ricardo gs: @Salvador alc: @Maor X: @Mahitgar: @Luisalvaz: @Petrosh:. In addition see my comment below. And again, I'm not going to talk to someone who talks like a high school teenager. --Akapochtli (talk) 22:28, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
8. Oppose with respect to my comment below. In addition, in the future, people may be willing to contribute. --Artix Kreiger (Message Wall) 22:38, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
9. Oppose. Obvious troll. Try requesting a Modern Nahautl Wikipedia. KATMAKROFAN (talk) 23:22, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
10. Strong oppose Per PetrohsW and Luisalvaz. Also, the main reason of this proposal is very personal with traces of a revenge against another user, a sysop from nah.wikipedia. This issue must be closed, and the user faces a punish because commited an act of sabotage. --Taichi - (あ！) 03:37, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Comments

The Nahua languages are life languages, Native speakers are 1 million in Mexico, they must to control all editions, ortography, sintaxis and administration, we (Mexican mestizos) only must to help their editions. Many Nahua speakers are in bad conditions, don't have got laptops, computers, internet in their homes, a small elite of Nahua speaker (Nahua people with high studies in universities) no active users in Wikipedia--Marrovi (talk) 15:17, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Notified locally. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:10, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

• Comment. @Marrovi: I know how strongly you feel about this, as we have discussed such on Incubator. However, you need to understand the following:
  • Your history, in general and on that wiki, doesn't give this proposal a great deal of credibility to an outside observer.
  • Ordinarily, policy on a project like this is that as long as its content is legitimate, it will stay open. It was created before the current language policy was adopted, which means that even if can only be read by Classical Nahuatl scholars, it would stay open, just as a project like Latin Wikipedia would stay open.
  • The only grounds on which you could potentially have this wiki closed would be if you can get a bona fide professor who is expert in these languages to testify that this wiki is not in correct Classical Nahuatl (or any other correct Nahuatl language). If this is not really true (and it doesn't seem to be), this project is unlikely to be closed.
  • It is extremely difficult to move a wiki, e.g., from nah.wikipedia.org to nci.wikipedia.org. If we can ever get that fixed, then possibly this wiki could be moved. (You could potentially open a phabricator task on that.) But if this is really in nci, why is there a project at incubator:Wp/nci? Shouldn't we delete it or merge it into the current nah:? StevenJ81 (talk) 20:16, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
• Also, please notify Wikimedia Mexico. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:17, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

I am an expert in these languages, though not a professor, but I can state that most of the content is not in correct classical Nahuatl - and that the neologisms invented by non-native speakers are not immediately intelligible or helpful for native speakers or experts in classical nahuatl. Nevertheless, I think the better solution would be for all non-native speaking editors to simply back out and let the native speakers take over the wiki and refashion it in the way that most serves their needs. And then for wikimedia to do some serious outreach efforts to recruit native speaking editors in Mexico. Maunus (talk) 06:31, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Good enough for starters, anyway. I'm not sure what LangCom will want to do. The rules on WMF projects generally allow "anyone" to edit. I'm going to be in touch with LangCom shortly to ask it to start addressing this proposal. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:34, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Are you sure that all content is Classic Nahuatl?, that publishers are really experts in Nahuatl languages? Are you sure there are no words invented by Mexican mestizo editors and not by native language editors? I understand the Classical Nahuatl and I can tell you that much content is laughable and is not an academic Nahuatl or a Nahuatl understood by true Nahuatl speakers and academics. And about the expulsion was a revenge of a certain person who set up a war for courage, he is not Native speaker, there is the record so that people can read it. (Notes: Requests for comment/Global ban for user Marrovi, Talk:Requests for comment/Global ban for user Marrovi, en:Talk:Teotlalpan) --Marrovi (talk) 20:37, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

1. Native speakers nah:User:Tepoxteco, nah:User:Teòtlalili (only editors with native language, have stopped editing here due to disappointment of a project misdirected towards the indigenous peoples, to see Huiquipedia works as a bad copy of Wikipedia in Spanish that only publish Spanish-speakers.)--Marrovi (talk) 21:01, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Comment: Frankly enough I am from completely different continent unaware of all the nuances of the given issue.(Ended up to comment here because some one requested on my talk page).

My prime doubt whther it will open door to existing policy change to leave previous small language wikis untouched ? Cause there are likely quite a few classical language wikis like Pali language which are not widely spoken but widely studied across universities. Although many universities are still not using wikis as education tool but still until prospect exist wiki should exist. If it is question outreach It will break today or tommorrow. Or Some other day or may be even never. Then there are technological prospects of Machine translations to improve far better in future so may be even a single researcher makes the project uptodate with the help of machine learning tools , who knows ?

Frankly I hate words like "incubator" or "Draft" for purpose is Wikipedia is encyclopedia in development. If you declare some thing is still not assured to survive people wont come to contribute. Best place actually for incubating smaller languages and dilects is closest language wiki in a separate namespace cause it makes simpler bor bilingual people to support the project there and there itself. Moving from one project to another happens to far lesser insatant.

Mahitgar (He who knows ,wants to know and and loves to keep others informed) (talk) 07:49, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, I received a (garbled and grammatically incorrect) notification on my talk page from Marrovi. After reading all this, I can't help but think this Proposal should be immediately closed. I am surprised that someone wants to completely remove this project. There are decent articles in the entire community and people are willing to contribute to the project. I see that tit has been months since there were some substantial edits. I understand that the articles are super short and can be considered stubs. For that, I see and understand the reasons to close. However, there is potential. The Nahuatl language can be revived in the future and thus will attract people who are willing to contribute to the wiki. The future is possible. Perhaps the wiki can stay.

Nahuatl is a wonderful language and knowledge is best disseminated through all languages. --Artix Kreiger (Message Wall) 22:38, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

• Comment. I propose to nah:user:Tepoxteco and nah:user:Teòtlalili as main sysops of Huiquipedia, they are native speakers of Nahuatl languages, they could invite real native speakers to edit good articles in Nahuatl languages.--Marrovi (talk) 03:27, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Victoriano (Tepoxteco) [4] [5] and Maurilio (Teotlalilli) [6] are true Nahua speakers. They must to be sysops in Huiquipedia, Nahuatl is their native language.--Marrovi (talk) 03:48, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

I do not know rest of the background but in principle I do agree that outsiders should avoid direct or indirect colonisation under any garb of small wikis and wikis should be left to the natives

Mahitgar (He who knows ,wants to know and and loves to keep others informed) (talk) 06:20, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you very much Mahitgar by your opinion, it's very necessary to be edited by native speakers in Nahuatl languages; In India there are meny languages as Mexico, I think that languages of India are edited by native speakers; I know this projects in India because I stay with Indian wikipedias in Wikimania 2015 and be talking about this topics with nah:User:Tepoxteco and me.--Marrovi (talk) 19:05, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

By Marrovi: Native speakers (Mexican natives in Huiquipedia)

These articles was edited by Native speakers in Nahuatl languages.

Tepoxteco's articles (Navive speaker in Huastec Nahuatl language and Classical Nahuatl)

nah:Benito Juárez, nah:Mazatl, nah:Xantoloh, nah:Ichmorral, nah:Xacoh, nah:Pahpatla, nah:Ilimonaria, nah:Otomih, nah:Chacha, nah:Tepozteco, nah:Juan Rulfo, nah:Chapictlan, nah:Ahuatenno, nah:Tecomate, occequin.

Teotlalilli's working (Native speaker in North Puebla Nahuatl language)

nah:Tlapalèwilistli: ¿Kèn nikchìwàs?

Teotlalilli's working

By Marrovi: No native speakers (Mexican mestizos in Huiquipedia)

These articles and works belong to the editors, many things do not have a foundation in the Nahuatl language, they are personal interests of the editors without help to the proper education of the Nahua people or indigenous education and academic education. If there is any doubt about the Nahuatl words, you can check words in this pretty accredited dictionary about classical Nahuatl. Gran diccionario náhuatl, UNAM. or Dictionnaire de la langue Náhuatl Classique.

Akapochtli's articles.

(Akapochtli's glossary nah:Anexo:Vocabulario)

nah:Teomatiliztli, nah:Xōchitl, nah:Xōchihcualli, nah:Izhuatl, nah:Tlanelhuatl, nah:Tzīncuauhyōtl, nah:Cueyatl, nah:Tocatl, nah:Cōātl, nah:Teōmatiliztli; nah:Cristianyōtl, nah:Catolicismo Romano, nah:Iglesia Ortodoxa, nah:Ismamismo

Cuaitl's articles.

(Cuaitl's dictionary nah:Tehtlahtol, nah:Tehtlahtol 2, nah:Tehtlahtol 3)

nah:Jesucristo, nah:María Ichpōchtli, nah:Jose itech Nazaret, nah:Miguel de Cervantes, nah:Emilio Salgari, nah:Nezahualcoyotl (tlahtoani), nah:Geronimo, nah:Juan Ramon Jimenez, nah:Gustavo Adolfo Becquer, nah:Ramon Maria del Valle-Inclan, nah:Luis itech Leon, nah:Juan itech Torquemada, nah:Jeronimo de Mendieta, nah:Agustin itech Hipona; nah:Tototen, nah:Huitzquimichin, Chichini, nah:Hueyimichin, nah:Chichihualli, nah:Andrés de Olmos

Battroid's articles.

nah:Cristina Fernández de Kirchner; nah:Xapon, nah:Afganistan

Fluence's articles.

nah:Reik, nah:Maná, nah:Keane, nah:Pianotli rock, nah:Queen, nah:Franz Liszt, nah:Metro Hidalgo, nah:Audi

Marrovi's articles.

(Marrovi's dictionary [7])

• nah Huiquipedia.

nah:Caxtillan, nah:Judaísmo, nah:Yancuic Mexihco, nah:Santa Fe Analco, nah:California, nah:Tequixquiac, nah:Tlahtohcayotl Mexihco, nah:Atemaxac, nah:Madrid, nah:Cuetlaxcoapan, nah:Tlacametl, nah:Altepetl Cuauhtemallan, nah:Monterrey, nah:Mazatl, nah:Ezxocotl, nah:In Vaticano, nah:Lalaxtli, nah:Yucatán, nah:Huaxyacac, nah:Michhuahcan Ocampo, nah:Huiquipedia:Náhuatl para hispanohablantes, nah:Mexihco, nah:Alemania, nah:Tlacetililli Tlahtohcayotl Ixachitlan, nah:Italia, nah:Francia, nah:Ocelotl, nah:Mexihco ihuahpacayo, nah:Caxtillan ihuahpacayo, nah:Polonia, nah:Altepetl Mexihco, nah:Cuauhnahuac, nah:Argentina, nah:Brasil

Ricardo sg's articles.

nah:Nāhuatlahtōlli, nah:Āmantēcayōtl, nah:Axcancayotl, nah:Nehnencācītlalli.

Comment this section affects 3 sysop of nahwiki: @Akapochtli, Battroid, and Ricardo gs: --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:19, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

By Marrovi: Incubator Nahuatl languages

incubator:Wp/nci and incubator:Category:Wp/nci Classical Nahuatl in Incubator.

It's a new oportunity for to start an academic articles in this death language understood only by academics, Classical Nahuatl students and professors.--Marrovi (talk) 23:27, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

incubator:Wp/nch and incubator:Category:Wp/nch Huastec Nahuatl in Incubator.

incubator:Wp/nhn and incubator:Category:Wp/nhn Central Nahuatl in Incubator.

incubator:Wp/ppl and incubator:Category:Wp/ppl Pipil (Salvadoran Nahuat) in Incubator.

Doubts with proposal

Unfortunatelly I have no option but being suspicious of this proposal. Marrovi has a long history of manipulation and misbehavior in Wikimedia. He uses versions of Wikipedia for selfpromotion (Note that he inserted above a link to "Marrovi's dictionary" that doesn't have any relation with this proposal) and in my opinion his intention on closing nah.wikipedia is more related to the fact he is banned from such project and not the noble porpouses and worries about native speakers. IMHO he doesn's want a restart for the project but for him. The differences between classic and contemporary nahuatl is and old discussion that exceeds Wikipedia and have their roots in the reconstruction of ancient nahuatl that made the antropologist and linguists since the last decades of XIX century separated from the evolution of nahuatl developed by native speakers. Nevertheless it seemed that wasn't a problem when Marrovi was an active editor in Nahuatl Wikipedia, why now is more relevant than in the past? Is well known that Marrovi has personal problems with the rest of users on that version of the encyclopedia, I would like to hear the opinion of such users first. Unless better arguments are developed or a general consensus inside the nah.wiki community is shown, I oppose to this proposal. --Salvador (talk) 20:00, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

The user Marrovi has always complained about the writting system, but he continued to contribute using his own writting as it was agreed. And when some controversy about any topic took place he took the users arguments as personal attacks although it was merly about the matter being discussed. And yes, he used huquipedia for selfpromotion[8]. --Ricardo gs (talk) 22:34, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Both of them no Nahuatl speakers, Mexican people is not synonym of Indigenous people.--Marrovi (talk) 04:29, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Salvador you are the less indicated by opinion, you travel promoting Wikiepdia, you spend funds of foundation wikipedia, you take photos in Paris, in Montreal, in China with Wikipedians and comfortably gives an opinion that nothing has to do Huiquipedia, gives a support of a language that you do not know, you do not speak and it surely does not interest you, you only think to go against me and cause more controversy without defending the language for the mother speakers. I do not think that you are interested in providing funds or managing funds for indigenous languages in which donors and publishers are native speakers, taking control of their own language in the same way they would in other wikipedias, Catalans controlling and opining on Wikipedia in Catalan, Did you get the message, or was I not clear? I have not seen their travels around the world take the mother speakers to speak about their Nahuatl languages and give their opinion of the future of their languages with the technologies of the 21st century. Is it difficult for them to go to Wikipedia events? Why do they exclude and give credit to Spanish-speaking people as diffusers of the Nahuatl languages? You live in Mexico and you know the strong deficiencies and discrimination suffered by our countrymen with native mother tongue, and the little indigenous elite is scarcely taken into account and they are not allowed to take the reins of their language in international affairs. If in the next events you are able to take you Nahua speakers or indigenous languages speakers to your trips of wikipedia, I give the reason and I retract about it, they are also Mexican the native people and they have the right to comment on Huiquipedia ¿Or not?. --Marrovi (talk) 03:53, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Salvador tu eres el menos indicado opinar, tu viajas promocionando Wikiepdia, gastas fondos de fundación wikipedia, te sacas la foto en Paris, en Montreal en China con wikipedistas y cómodamente das una opinión que nada tiene que ver con Huiquipedia sabiendo las desigualdades existentes entre tú y los hablantes de las lenguas nahuas, das un apoyo de una macrolengua que no conoces, que no hablas y seguramente ni te interesa, solo opinas para ir en contra mía y causar más polémica sin defender las lenguas para los hablantes maternos. No creo que te interese aportar fondos económicos o gestionar fondos para las lenguas indígenas en las que los donantes y editores sean hablantes nativos, llevando ellos el control de su propia lengua de la misma forma que lo harían en las demás wikipedias, catalanes controlando y opinando sobre la Wikipedia en catalán ¿entendiste el mensaje, o no fui claro?. No he visto que a sus viajes por el mundo se lleven a los hablantes maternos para que hablen sobre sus lenguas nahuas y den opinión del futuro de sus idiomas con las tecnologías del siglo XXI ¿Es difícil que ellos vayan a los eventos de Wikipedia? ¿Por qué los excluyen y dan crédito a gente hispanohablante como difusores de las lenguas nahuas? Tú vives en México y conoces las fuertes carencias y la discriminación que sufren nuestros paisanos con habla materna indígena, y la poca élite indígena es escasamente tomada en cuenta y no se les deja tomar las riendas de su lengua en asuntos internacionales. Si en los próximos eventos eres capaz de llevarte hablantes de lenguas indígenas a tus viajes de wikipedia, te doy la razón y me retracto, también son mexicanos los pueblos originarios y tienen derecho a opinar sobre Huiquipedia en foros internacionales ¿O no?. --Marrovi (talk) 03:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Nahuatl is not language, is a Macro-language, Mestizo people don't understand it, Mestizo mind is different to Nahua mind.--Marrovi (talk) 03:26, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

@Marrovi: Nahuatl is not macrolanguage, it's a Colletion of languages (Scope: Collective). --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:13, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Petrosh; el español del norte es un acento, más no una lengua diferente. Con las lenguas nahuas no pasa lo mismo, hay variantes nahuas que no son inteligibles entre sí, esa ha quedado muy bien explicado por lingüistas y expertos en lenguas nahuas. Pensar en español no es lo mismo que pensar en náhuatl, ese es un grave error de mestizos mexicanos respecto a las lenguas indígenas de nuestro país; mestizos mexicanos y mexicanos indígenas si somos paisanos, pero no pensamos igual, nuestras comunidades son dos mundos distintos, por ende esa es causa suficiente para replantear todo y hacernos a un lado los mestizos para dejar que los mexicanos de los pueblos indígenas tomen las riendas de su lengua y ellos encausen sus propios principios éticos y morales, los cuales no son equivalentes a los nuestros; si algunas vez has visitado una comunidad indígena te darás cuanta que nada tiene que ver con la forma de vida de un citadino, allá no hay competencias, vanidades, bloqueos, obstáculos de aprendizaje, envidias o sabotajes, eso no forma parte de principios de los pueblo indígenas, esa es herencia española, más no enseñanzas indígenas. Las comunidades indígenas son pobres, pero son eso, COMUNIDADES, donde todos son parte de uno solo y tienen que hacer a un lado los malos valores para vivir plenamente de forma comunitaria, allí hay tequio (todos trabajan para la comunidad), allí hay obligaciones y normas, allí cuando una persona muera todos verdaderamente lo sienten sin decir ninguna palabra, pero no hay descalificaciones, guerras sucias, complots o sabotajes como los habitantes de grandes ciudades que se pelean entre hermanos hasta por quedarse con un pedazo de tierra.--Marrovi (talk) 04:09, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Si no les interesa los pueblos indígenas, por lo menos sean respetuosos con ellos, dejen que ellos tomen partido de su propia lengua, ustedes y yo no somos nadie para tomar partido sobre la lengua náhuatl ¿No leyeron a Maunus? Aquí no se trata de hacer una guerra contra mi, no basta con una wikipedia en náhuatl para revitalizar una lengua, los hablantes maternos deben tomar decisión de su lengua ¿Ustedes tienen ese poder, dado por las comunidades nahuas?, ¿Ustedes tienen autorización de opinar sobre ellos?, ¿Acaso ustedes les comparten viajes y fondos económicos a las comunidades nahuas para editar Huiquipedia? ¿O simplemente quieren sacar provecho de las comunidades indígenas? Ya estamos en siglo XXI, hay que respetar a los hablantes maternos de la lenguas indígenas, son ellos los que deben decidir.--Marrovi (talk) 03:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Ricardo gs What dou you mean about it? gl:Usuario:Atobar and gl:Alejandro Tobar It's good or no good?.--Marrovi (talk) 03:09, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Ricardo gs. If you really love the Nahuatl laguages, do not destroy it with your invented neologisms, or try to impose a dead language that you have not structured correctly, love the work your Nahua brothers do with living languages and do not be foolish to impose on the world community that reads Wikipedia an artificial language that only you understand, let the mother speakers write their language as they want, it is their language, more not yours or mine; let them also administer their language, they are the speakers not you or me. We learn to respect others, we must be behind them forward of them, don't giving them indications.--Marrovi (talk) 04:26, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Ricardo gs. Si deveras amas a las leguas náhuatl, no la destruyas con tus neologismos inventados, ni trates de imponer una lengua muerta que tampoco la has estructurado de forma correcta; ama el trabajo que hacen tus hermanos nahuas con las lenguas vivas y no seas necio de imponerle a la comunundad mundial que lee Wikipedia una lengua artificial que solo tú entiendes, deja que los hablantes maternos escriban su lengua como ellos quieran, es su lengua, más no tuya o mia; deja que también ellos administren su lengua, son ellos los hablantes no tú o yo. Aprendamos a respetar a los demás, nosotros debemos estar atrás de ellos no adelante de ellos dándoles indicaciones.--Marrovi (talk) 04:23, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Tel tlamelauhcan in tlein quitohua in tocniuhtzin Marrovi, nochi in tlen anquicuilohuahque nican ahmo tlen monehnehuilia. Aquique totlacatcatlahtol inin tlahtolli ahmo techpactia xicchihuacan yancuic tlahtolli tlen ahmo moyectzintihtoc, tlen ahmo moyectetzontihtoc. Intla melahuac anquitlazohtlaque xicahuacan ma ticanacan tomauhco, tel ahmo ximohuehueinequican. Ca xinechtlapohpolhuican intla ahmo cualtzin onitlahto, ca tel ahmo nicnequi namechcualantiz. Teòtlalili

Teotlalilli is Native speaker from Nahuatl languages, thank you very much by your opinion Teotlalilli.--Marrovi (talk) 05:10, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't agree with any of these Oppose given by the three users because they only defend a personal position and is not objective about the failure of Huiquipedia, the former only speaks of a selfish stance as if Salvador I was at war with myself, aside from the respect the native speakers of Nahuatl deserve, it is clear that their vote against does not think about indigenous peoples and focuses only on not giving me access (selfish act as if it belonged to Huiquipedia); because Salvador, the problem here is not that I edit, the central problem is that there are no native speakers editing and the few who have told me that they were ignored by you, losing confidence and support regarding how to route their languages using Wikipedia . All that is edited in Huiquipedia are pure nonsense, approaches very distant of a Classical Nahuatl language.

The second vote against is far from a knowledge about Nahuatl and variants, which has nothing to do with a comparative to the Spanish language being very academic, because the variants are fragmented and all are heard very different, it's as Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan or Galician, but not accents or regional idioms from the north or south of Mexico or Spain. Palach, Huexolotl, Chompipi and Huechoj does not have got the same root, nor the sound is similar knowing that it's a same concept; and if we go to syntax and grammar do not match so that we confuse it with accents.

The third approach is another egotistical and crafty view, it is to deceive people that the Nahuatl edited in Huiquipedia is Nahuatl classic, Maunus already explained that it is a fallacy what is written there and we can not be fooled that we are experts of nahuas languages for win votes that the project will not be erased. Unfortunately many naive people fell into the trap of being Nahuatl correct what is published in Huiquipedia. I do not agree on any vote and I have already explained it, but in democracy you have to respect this exercise; if the voters agree to continue with the error and make this a snowball, then go ahead, I must respect the result, the only regrettable is that Nahuatl native speakers, by mestizos pass them through the arc of triumph.--Marrovi (talk) 05:15, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

No estoy de acuerdo con ninguno de estos planteamientos de Oposición dado por los tres usuarios porque solo defienden una postura personal y no es objetiva sobre el fracaso de Huiquipedia, el primero solo habla de una postura egoísta como si Salvador estuviera en guerra contra mí, pasándose a un lado el respeto que se merecen los hablantes maternos de náhuatl, es claro que su voto en contra no piensa en los pueblos indígenas y se centra solo en no darme acceso (acto egoísta como si le perteneciera la Huiquipedia); pues Salvador, el problema aquí no es que yo edite, el problema central es que no hay hablantes nativos editando y los pocos que hubo me comentan que fueron ignorados por ustedes, perdiendo la confianza y el apoyo respecto a como encaminar sus lenguas usando la Wikipedia. Todo lo que se edita en Huiquipedia son puros disparates, planteamientos muy lejanos de una lengua náhuatl clásica.

El segundo voto en contra está lejos de una conocimiento sobre el náhuatl y las variantes, lo cual nada tiene que ver con una comparativa al idioma español siendo muy académico, porque las variantes están fragmentadas y se escuchan todas muy diferentes, es como si se hablara de español, portugués, catálan o gallego, más no acentos del norte o del sur de México o de España. Palach, Huexolotl, Chompipi y Huechoj no tiene la misma raíz, ni el sonido es semejante sabiendo que es un mismo concepto; y si nos vamos a sintaxis y gramática tampoco coinciden como para que lo confundamos con acentos.

El tercer planteamiento es otra visión egoísta y mañosa, es engañar a la gente que el náhuatl editado en Huiquipedia es náhuatl clásico, Maunus ya explicó que es una falacia lo que allí está escrito y no podemos dejarnos engañar que somos expertos de lenguas nahuas para ganar votos de que no sea borrado el proyecto. Lamentablemente mucha gente ingenua cayó en la trampa de que es náhuatl correcto lo que se edita en Huiquipedia. No estoy de acuerdo en ningún voto y ya lo expliqué, pero en la democracia hay que respetar este ejercicio; si los votantes aceptan seguir con el error y hacer de esto una bola de nieve, pues adelante, debo respetar el resultado, lo único lamentable es que los hablantes nativos, los mestizos se los pasan por el arco del triunfo.--Marrovi (talk) 05:10, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

@Marrovi: Please keep your remarks shorter. We already know your reasoning and your opinion. Thank you. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:27, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Nocnīuhtzin @Teòtlalili: xinēchtlapohpolhuia nimitzihcuilōz īca caxtillāntlahtōlli. En lo que dices sobre los neologismos tienes razón, y espero que eso no sea lo que impida que colabores, ten en cuenta que no son imposiciones, ni se han tomado como definitivos, sino que son propuestas que pueden ser mejoradas, te invito a que te sientas con la libertad de proponer los cambios o hacerlos tú mismo. Aparte de esto creo que el asunto que puede causar diferencias es la ortografía y la variedad de la lengua que se utiliza en la redacción de los artículos; debate que sigue sigue abierto. Tlahpalōliztli. --Ricardo gs (talk) 17:31, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Oye Mauri (Teotlalilli), cuanta hipocresía de este señor, este mismo usuario era el que estaba en contra de tu escritura y te tomaba de vándalo porque cambiabas palantillas, pestañas y textos a la escritura de tu variante; cuanto cinismo noicnuhtzin (mi querido amigo), después de que te trababa de forma inferior despreciando la riqueza de lengua materna (Náhuatl de la Huasteca Poblana), que es una lengua viva en tu comunidad.--Marrovi (talk) 03:14, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Hipocresía la tuya Marrovi, eres totalmente desconocedor del verdadero nahuatl y permitiste muchas babosadas en Huiquipedia, una de ellas fue dejar que Teotlalili jugará con una escritura no reconocida y no usada a NIVEL COMUNITARIO, ¡esa escritura NO es usada en ninguna comunidad! Por eso esto corrigiendo todas las contribuciones de Teotlalili; ¿Qué acaso no buscaste eliminar los macrones para tener una escritura simplificada? ¿Entonces por qué apoyas una escritura más compleja? --Akapochtli (talk) 22:28, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

No cambias Akapochtli, siempre ofendiendo a las personas nativas que hablan la lengua náhuatl, tiene un profundo desprecio por los pueblos indígenas y sus conocimientos ¿Quién eres tú para normar a un hablante nativo como debe escribir su lengua? Afortunadamente Francisco Hernández Maciel (Akapochtli), estás bien identificado por la comunidad náhuatl de Guadalajara como un racista, un malagradecido y un acomplejado; te gusta ser intrigoso, incendias chismes y comprometes gente, te gusta el juego sucio y entre tu marranero te llevaste entre los pies a muchas personas, pero al menos, quienes te conocen en persona no te compran. Tampoco me vengas a presumir que eres conocedor de idioma náhuatl, tú no eres hablante nativo de las lenguas nahuas, solo buscas ir en contra mía y ganarte votos de audiencia como es tu estilo (políticas de buen vecino; donde tú eres el bueno y yo tu vecino).--Marrovi (talk) 02:17, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Marrovi, dado que pones en duda mi comportamiento con Teòtlalili te pido por favor que no intrigues, no mientas, no manipules y no me calumnies; la poca interacción que hemos tenido Teòtlalili y yo siempre ha sido con respeto, cordialidad y apoyo mutuo[9][10], jamás estuve en contra suya, siempre lo traté con igualdad, con apertura al diálogo e inclusividad[11][12], lo cual ha sido recíproco y por eso me atrevo a decirle nocnīuhtzin: mi respetable hermano. --Ricardo gs (talk) 03:37, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

I am not going to answer to your provocations @Marrovi:. It's enough to say that if I am giving my opinions here is because you invited me. --Salvador (talk) 19:02, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Fuiste invitado porque tienes un cargo importante en Wikimedia México y esperabamos de ti propuestas relevantes que sean de beneficio para las lenguas de México y para los pueblos indígenas; si tu plan era atacarme, sabes mi correo y conoces mi página de usuario; este no era el espacio para explayar el desprecio que tengas hacia mi persona, si se te invitó fue porque pensé que habría madurez en tí, pero ingenuamente pensé que te interesaban los pueblos indígenas y veo que no. Finalmente salió tu verdadero yo y te salió el cobre pensando que eras oro; pero bueno, no podemos pedirle al olmo que dé peras, creo que los hablantes de lenguas nativas de México deben hacer su propio camino sin esperar nada de nadie (como ellos mismol odicen), no deben confiarse de hispanohablantes, y mucho menos ellos tienen nada que ver con gente de habla española; las lenguas amerindias necesitan verdaderos líderes (con lengua materna y no materna) que trabajen por sus lenguas, que bajen fondos y proyectos de la fundación wikipedia y que trabajen por la gente de México sin importar si es indígena o de pueblos originarios. Lamento mucho que solo tienes ese cargo para hacer turismo y tomarte con Jimbo, sin traer nada productivo para la educación en lenguas indígenas, creo que nos equivocamos contigo; sigue con tu turismo y tu grupo selecto de amigos hispanoparlantes, ojalá algún día voltees la cara a la realidad de tu país y te des cuenta que tuviste la oportunidad de trabajar para los pueblos indígenas y no hiciste nada.--Marrovi (talk) 02:09, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Based on @Marrovi:'s reasoning of the Nahuatl Wikipedia editors mixing Nahuatl with Spanish and using incorrect neologisms, the Ladino Wikipedia should be closed as well, since this user himself mixes Spanish with Ladino to the point that maay of his articles there are neither in Ladino nor in Spanish. And an user whose very long history of manipulation and misbehavior in the different Wikimedia projects lacks credibility to request the closure of a Wikipedia based on arguments he himself applies on another project. --Maor X (talk) 19:21, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Maor X, La mi famiya es de orijin sefaradi, mosotros somos marranos, no tengo bushka de dizir babajadas purke en kaza avlamos muestros kastilyano antiko komo ambezamos desde la chikez, mas de 400 anyos somos afinkados aki, klaro ke muestro ladino tiene influensia del kastilyano del Meksiko purke es la lingua dela ke tenemos konosensia (aki no se avla turko o arabo para ke queras enderechar la mi fala), ma endagora ambezo el ladino turkano purke es mas ermozo; kuando guste puede konosed la muestra komunita (komunidá en mi famiya) de orijin kripto-djudio, en mosotros siempre ay relasion kon komunitas ashkenazitas dela Evropa, el mi bisaguelo (baba o nono enla Turkiya) fue (hue en la mi famiya) djudio. Ansina, no tengo relijion, ma la mi famiya troko el lashon de Avraham Avinu por el tradision dela relijion kristiana katolika kon el kastilyano. Misturo el lashon del djudezmo kon el kastilyano purke soy marrano, purke nasi avlando kastilyano antiko (mas Haketia ke turkano) i purke en el mi payiz se avla kastilyano komo lingua ofisiala. Maor X, Tengo un grande mizir ke avla djudeoespanyol ke mana komo la agua pura, es konosido komo Universal Life aki en Vikipedya, grande sinyor ke melda la su lengua madre. (Text in Aki Yerishalayim).--Marrovi (talk) 01:43, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

@Marrovi: About this “you travel promoting Wikiepdia, you spend funds of foundation wikipedia, you take photos in Paris, in Montreal, in China”, I don't understand what does it have to do with Salvador alc's concerns. Yes, Salvador is part of Wikimedia Mexico and an Affcom member, he works very hard for the movement and the travels and grands he has earned are the fruits of their work, a work that benefits this project (OUR PROJECT). If you have a personal disagreement with him, this is not the space to talk about that. About your concern of the native nahuatl speakers that aren't able to travel and they deserve to go to the Wikimedia conferences (I'm agree with you) also there are a lot of discussion on the Foundation to create more spaces and become a more inclusive movement (a real multicultural movement), but this is not part of the discussion here.--Luisalvaz (talk) 02:42, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Luisalvaz ¿Tú crees que los pueblos indígenas no se han ganado ese mismo derecho? ¿Tú crees que los hablantes nativos de lenguas indígenas no trabajan arduamente por su lengua? ¿Ellos no se merecen el derecho de ser protagonistas de su propia lengua? ¿Los pueblos indígenas no merecen tener frutos por su duro trabajo?, ¿El mestizo es el que debe representarlos siempre?. Aquí se pide equidad para los verdaderos hablantes de lenguas indígenas, el borrado no es un capricho mio, es empezar de cero, pero con el trabajo de los propios hablantes, más no con la porquería de artículos existentes en Huiquipedia. Nunca he dicho que el mestizo o extrajero estudiante de lenguas Náhuatl no pueda editar, claro que si, pero un mexicano mestizo no tiene el derecho de ser administrador, son ellos los que deben serlo y nosotros debemos estar por debajo de los hablantes maternos, recibiendo órdenes de ellos y no al revés. En mi experiencia con Wikipedia en ladino hay un exelente trabajo comunitario, Universal Life es hablante nativo de judeo-español y el es un gran guía para los que editamos allí, yo recibo órdenes de él como mi maestro y amigo para que el proyecto vaya caminando cada día mejor; mira una pequeña muestra de mis artículos lad:Meksiko, lad:Sivdad de Aguascalientes, lad:Kebek, lad:Lima, lad:Esnoga Istorika Justo Sierra 71 y los estoy traduciendo a escritura rashí lad:מיקסיקו. Aquí no hay celos ni envidias, solo arduo trabajo en comunidad, aquí nadie se siente dueño del proyecto ni una gran influencia de poder por encima de los demás, el proyecto va caminando y he ampliado una gran cantidad de esbozos que estaban allí por muchos años sin editar, hasta tenemos mejores artículos que los editados en español. Aquí todos aprendemos de todos y nos escuchamos, retroalimentamos nuestro trabajo y nos comunicamos regularmente, nada que ver con la cantidad de guerras, chismes, bloqueos y sabotajes existentes en la wikipedia en español; aquí el trabajo es una manera de dar respeto hacia los demás y todo es discutible sin llegar a agravios como los generados en comunidades hispanoparlantes.--Marrovi (talk) 03:41, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Marrovi. Aunque no lo creas, entendemos, y aunque nuestros esfuerzos al respecto han sido mínimos, tenemos la intención de multiplicarlos y seguir trabajando con las comunidades lingüísticas del país. No intentamos subestimarlos, ni apropiarnos de su conocimiento o pensarlo como saberes subordinados; de verdad todo el tiempo estamos cuestionando nuestros privilegios como mestizos, citadinos, heteros, cis, etc. Nunca terminaremos de deconstruirnos ni de derribar el colonialismo de nuestras mentes del todo, pero hacemos el esfuerzo como capítulo, de verdad que sí. Quizá este ejemplo sea muy pequeñito, pero lo que hicimos en Mérida con hablantes de Maya yucateco pueda servir de ejemplo (aquí el link). Ellos editaron, corrigieron y ampliaron (poco, pero lo hicieron) la versión de Yua:Wiki de la incubadora (sé que la conoces y que la iniciaste), y aunque por el momento no puedan apropiarse de ella ni generar la comunidad necesaria para convertirla en Wiki, estoy seguro que eventualmente en el futuro pasará, y tendrán que enfrentarse a muchos desafíos, los cuales nos platicaron, y que tendrán muchas discusiones con otros maya hablantes, y con los estudiosos de la lengua maya, etc.; pero serán las discusiones de esa comunidad. A ese taller sólo fuimos a facilitar la herramienta, pero creo que yo aprendí más que ellos. Sé que nuestros enfoques pedagógicos pueden diferir, pero creo que Wikipedia se trata de derribar esos enfoques verticales y paternalistas. Entiendo tu preocupación, pero creo que se contradice porque aquí no hay ningún hablante nativo de ninguna de las variedades de Náhuatl dando su opinión ni defendiendo ninguna postura. La Huiquipedia no es de papel, se puede renovar, se puede mejorar y basta con que una nueva generación de personas que tengan al Náhuatl como su lengua materna (o incluso a hablantes del Náhuatl como su segunda o tercera lengua) se integren. Sé que estoy simplificando la discusión, pero no puedo ampliarla porque reconozco mis limitaciones con respecto al tema. Hablo como parte del movimiento, y porque he leído otras discusiones similares al respecto de otras wikis pequeñas que por múltiples razones no han crecido lo suficiente ni representan la cantidad de hablantes naturales que tienen. --Luisalvaz (talk) 04:11, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Teotlalilli dio su opinión ¿Pudiste leerla? [13], él es hablante nativo del la lengua náhuatl de la Huasteca Poblana.--Marrovi (talk) 05:35, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Ellos saben y están leyendo esto aunque tú no lo creas, por redes sociales, por notificaciones y por wapp, Teotlalilli (Mauricio) fue el único que respondió y allí está su comentario, aunque es una lastima que no te hayas percatado de ello, pero no todos lo pueden entender porque está escrito en su variante con escritura clásica. Comparto un poco de la discusión en redes sociales [14].

• Maurilio Ricaño: El problema es que la Wikipedia en náhuatl esta prácticamente secuestrada por gente que ama nuestra lengua pero no saben ni lo que hacen, con solo conocer un poco o haberla estudiado en una escuela, creen que la dominan completamente y tienen el derecho de hacer o crear reglas a su antojo. Yo considero que la lengua clásica no es ininteligible para los que tenemos por lengua materna el idioma mexicano, es un pensamiento completamente erróneo.

• Enrique Escalona Wikipedia está abierto a quien quiera editar contenidos.

Me gustaMostrar más reacciones · Responder · 1 · 23 h

• Ignacio Silva: El náhuatl clásico no es ininteligible, puede costar trabajo debido al tiempo que ha pasado desde la conquista, pero se puede entender perfectamente. Qué hay que hacer? Aprender las lenguas originarias de México, nada más. No hay que pasar vergüenzas ni hay que rasgarse las vestiduras.

Me gustaMostrar más reacciones · Responder · 3 · 18 h

• Ignacio Silva: Una forma del náhuatl que es muy difícil es el uso del reverencial, desde mi perspectiva quien habla con reverenciales es un verdadero sabio.

Me gustaMostrar más reacciones · Responder · 2 · 18 h

• Remix Kaster: nelnelia tlen nikaj in kamaltij, san nij neki i meh tlajtlanis ¿nelia in kamaltij nahuatl o san i mo yampa? ni chia tech nankilika

Nelnelia no luego nada en kamaltij, un sueño no algunos y meh tlajtlanis nelia en kamaltij aztecy de san y mo yampa? Ni chia tech nankilika

• Eliezer Oliver Zamudio: Kên ôtimotlatwiliti'tsino'? Nikmati nitla'tôs nâwatla'tôli, te'wân tikilwilia' mâsêwaltla'tôli noso mexi'katla'tôli. Titla'toa waxtêkapantla'tôli, melâwak? Nimitstla'paloa, tlaso'kâmatitsin.

• Remix Kaster: xi seli se tlajpaloli no uampox, tlaskamatij miak mo tlajtol, kijtouan ininjuantiya kej tijuantij amo tij mo machilian una kipia tij kin nextilisej ke mo kuapoltokej.

No estoy bloqueado por no saber el idioma, sino por envidia y coraje del administrador Akapochtli, un prueba más de que hay gente que siente envidia del trabajo de los demás y trata de hacer a un lado del camino a quien no piense como él, comenzó su chisme en español y se aprovechó de la situación para bloquearme. Es una lástima que el chisme sea más fuerte que la razón mi estimado Luis y que en base al chisme hayas emitido tu voto. Osea que todos pueden editar pero menos yo, eso es egoísta y muestras de forma obvia que atrás de tí hay otras personas que llevaron a dar esa opinión del famoso bloqueo, no quiero pensar mal, así como van las cosas, puedo pensar que te dieron dinero para ese curso con los mayas yucatecos y eso si ya está peor.--Marrovi (talk) 06:04, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Luisalvaz; te muestro parte de mi humilde trabajo, lamento mucho que tú no me quieras dentro de Huiquipedia y en todas las demás (todos menos tú), he llegado a pensar de todo esto es porque ay dinero y negocio de por medio y por eso las reacciones de monopolizar todo hacia comunidades hispanas con influencias muy poderosas; sin embargo es un mal pensamiento que tengo que se los he hecho saber a diversas comunidades indígenas de lenguas diferentes de México, de Guatemala, de Colombia, de Perú, de Chile y de Ecuador, este mal pensamiento se me dio porque soy desconfiando y mal pensado debido a las circunstancias que he tenido que enfrentarme con los bloqueos, ya que no soy un editor ordinario e ingenuo. A mi no pagan avión, ni me hospedan en buen hotel, ni me dan viáticos para trabajar con los mayas, que bueno que sabes para que sirve el dinero y el evento dejó dinero en conferencias de prensa y otros fondos que pudieron haber sido útiles para las propias comunidades mayas de Yucatán. La diferencia mia es que es una pasión para mí invertir mi tiempo en asuntos de lenguas indígenas aunque no me paguen (sobre todo escuchar a mi hermano son poner las empresas al frente), tanto me gustan las lenguas de México, al grado de que fui a la Universidad de Varsovia, por la pasión es que para mi las lenguas náhuatl sin ser hablante nativo (como tú lo manifiestas) [15], yo no he corrido con la misma suerte tuya de capitalizar eventos con fines ambiguos, pero si me pago mis viajes, mis publicaciones y mis conferencias con mi propio dinero, algo que es satisfactorio para mí y por eso soy respetado entre los hablantes nativos. Parte de mi trabajo en la incubadora; al menos si me preocupa estar lo más cerca de las lenguas nahuas vivas porque quiero que esto sea para ellos mismos; Incubator:Wp/nch/Palach, Incubator:Wp/nch/San Isidro Matsojtla, Incubator:Wp/nch/Mexko, Incubator:Wp/nch/Xilitlan, Incubator:Wp/nhn/Malinalco, Incubator:Wp/nhn/Coyochichi. ¿Si a mi me apasiona mucho las lenguas de México y quiero colaborar, para qué me quieres fuera de Wikipedia? ¿Por qué yo no soy el indicado para trabajar y ser activista en las lenguas indígenas dentro y fuera de Wikipedia? ¿Qué es lo que tanto les causa molestia o envidia de que yo colabore con personas de habla materna? ¿Por qué tanto odio hacia mi persona, al grado que es obvio que me ven como su enemigo? ¿Será que no están acostumbrados a ser cuestionados y que de forma directa les haga notar su proceder? Acepto perder, pero muchos saben la verdadera historia amañada de Akapochtli para generarme muchos bloqueos y despretigiar mi persona y mi trabajo por mera envidia.--Marrovi (talk) 06:59, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

@Marrovi: Estas avlando bavajadas, la muestra lingua no es avlada por los anusim, deke el desvelopamiento de la lingua egzistio diskues deke los djudios eran kitados de Espanya -en La Turkiya, Gresia i el Nord de Afrika. Kale dar kavod al tu entereso en la muestra lingua, ma si pueder ser, deshate de inventar bavajadas. Atacar una Wikipedia y pedir su cierre no es la solución, mucho menos cuando has sido bloqueado de cuatro Wikipedias diferentes (incuyendo esta misma) por transgredir sus normas, y sabes bien que en la Wikipedia en Ladino pensamos en hacer lo mismo luego de la cantidad ofensiva de artículos creados por ti que no son ni en Español ni en Ladino...y no vengas a decir que es que dos o tres usuarios te odian. Cuando en cuatro proyectos te han bloqueado de manera permanente, analiza un poco tus acciones. Los zamuros no se equivocan. --Maor X (talk) 07:22, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Shalom; anusim dela Nueva Espanya nunka avlaron djueoespanyol, la mi famiya troko el lashon por kristianismo i kastilyano, anke munchos biervos del djudeoespanyol son de misma avla muestra. En kaza dizimos munchos biervos komo en ladino, una grande konsidensia dela istoria. Puedo editar tres artikolos por semanada en Vikipedya, tengo lisensia de Steven i Universal Life, eyos miran el mi lavoro i resibo ayudo d'eyos. ¿Purke tu no puedes dar ayudo? ¿No amas a los anusim? En aki yerushalayim del mizir Elieser Papo dize norte i no nord, ma no enderecho purke munchas komunitas avlan kon alkunas diferensias.--Marrovi (talk) 07:42, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Me akodro de ti, te vide en el muzeo Soumaya, en Wikimanía 2015, no avia konosensia mia de ke eras sefaradi, te podia yevar a konoser alkunas esnogas i endemas alkunos djudios dela espandida Sivdad de Meksiko, ¿En ande nasites, en la Turkia, Bulgaria, Yisrael o Serbia? Me agrada konoser sefaradis oryentales. Meldo los artikolos dela Autoridad (otorita en turkano) Nasionala del Ladino, una baza dela mi konosensia de djudeo-espanyol [16], ansina siempre soy aperturado a konoser mas de las variantes del ladino, triste ke los mansevos i krios poko saben djudeo espanyol, una grande lingua de aedados ke puede ser finada o muerta en pokas anyadas. --Marrovi (talk) 08:38, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Es vedra, ainda soy estudiozo chiko de djudeo-espanyol, ma es una grande pasion embezad una ermoza lingua kaji amortada komo ladino, ma endemas ay pasion por embezar nahuatl o lingua azteka, una lingua de munchas linguas, ke es avlada por jente manseva i chikitika, ansina komo por jente aedada. Ay bloko mio purke la jente administradora de Huiquipedia avla kastilyano; si no gusta de avlantes aborijinalos kon lingua maternala menos los ke defendemos basho diritos edukativos. Es amor lavorar kon jente de lingua nativa, ayi no ay blokos ni gerras, es pasion ambezar nahuatl en komunitas vedraderas de una grande lingua del mi payis (paiz en AY), los editores ke defendites no son una refrensia de linguas náhuatl vedraderas ni de nahuatl klasiko, endemas no veo muchiguamiento i endechamiento de una Huiquipedia, es difisil ke avlantes nativos editen ayi; anke aiga bloko mio no kreo ke los ke sigan ayi puedan enderechar todo, por modre de kavzas itorikas el nahuatl no es lo mismo ke el kastilyano, alkavo ke los nahutlatos no meldan la su lingua komo los mestizos i espanyoles.--Marrovi (talk) 10:07, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Iyo se ke entendites todo.--Marrovi (talk) 03:53, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Classical languages can and do exist right now on Wikipedia

As far as I can see, classical languages like Latin and classical Chinese do have communities inside Wikipedia. None of those involved in such communities claim native proficiency in said language.

From what I can understand on discussions dating back to 2004, the first contributors used classical orthography to maintain continuity with the transcription in use in historic texts and to keep the language transcription precise. Since I don't speak Nahuatl, I don't know if Wikipedia articles are written in fact in modern Nahuatl with a classical orthography or in full 16th century Nahuatl.

In one case or the other, no Wikipedia should be closed, but rather created. That is why Classical Nahuatl -- or whatever language nah.wikipedia is written in -- can exist as a Wikipedia.

There are 9 ISO codes for all varieties of Nahuatl and apparently some of them are unintelligible to others. But is it reasonable to split the community in nine different Wikipedias given the scarcity of native Nahuatl language contributors out there?

Some kind of middle ground would be a feature that allows the viewer to comfortably switch between orthographies. From an outsider point of view, this shouldn't be too hard. It is up to nah.wikipedia to organise itself not to have more than one spelling variety or dialect in use per article, pretty much like the English Wikipedia does at this time. --Jagwar grrr... 21:51, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I studied a Classical nahuatl language, I love this death language from my country, I can to edit in this variant of Nahuatl languages. It's a good article edited by me two years ago; nah:Tequixquiac, I was helped by nah:User:Tepoxteco. Many people was a Classical Nahuatl students and working about Nahuatl comunities and international forums. I speak Classical Nahuatl and I understand other Nahuatl life languages as Huastec variant.--Marrovi (talk) 22:21, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I am not against changing the ISO nah to nci, that is relatively simple to do. The problem in Huiquipedia is an offer of neologisms invented by Mexican mestizos, which are not compressible by students and academics of Classical Nahuatl, there is a jumble of modern variants with psedo-Classical writing; since the first writing of Nahuatl classic was maçatl, ayauh coçamalotl, Castillã or ciua teupixqui.

These are the kinds of discussions that bothers the sysops, feel that their work and own way of interpreting the Nahuatl is threatened before the old studies. Another problem is that they repeat the same process of operation of the Spanish language, to the degree of wanting to seek direct translations of concepts in Spanish trying to translate it into Nahuatl language under Spanish logic in grammar.

As they often use the same operability of Spanish, they use the power assigned to them by sysops (Spanish community) to block or close the passage of those who do not agree with them assuming themselves as great connoisseurs of Nahuatl to justify acts towards other editors (Teotlalilli, Tepoxteco, Marrovi, etc.), copying models of wikipedia in Spanish, is how numerous conflicts between sysops have arisen with the native speakers and academic students of Classical Nahuatl.

The failure of Huiquipedia is to hold on to being right and to make voting groups to go against those who know postures of the language, coupled with a deafness to the few native speakers of the Nahuatl language, which the Nahua speakers consider a childhood of administrators, an occult racism of the mestizo towards to the native speakers and a Spanish colonial vision that try to regulate and govern the indigenous languages of Mexico with cenceptos of Spanish speakers, for example: Teotl by God, cauallo cactli by spur, ciua tlacamichin by mermaid, and others.--Marrovi (talk) 03:33, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

• Comment. I propose to nah:user:Tepoxteco and nah:user:Teòtlalili as main sysops of Huiquipedia, they are native speakers of Nahuatl languages, they could invite real native speakers to edit good articles in Nahuatl languages.--Marrovi (talk) 03:27, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Victoriano (Tepoxteco) [17] [18] and Maurilio (Teotlalilli) [19] are true Nahua speakers. They must to be sysops in Huiquipedia, Nahuatl is their native language.--Marrovi (talk) 03:48, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

What is the intention of this proposal, revenge or spread nonsense?

The pseudo-argumentation of the user Marrovi is meaningless, he starts from a previous query, which he copies and paste but also he manipulates it altering its content, he's wanting us to believe that's the same address what his proposal. Mistaken, the negative elements of that time were exceeded, the conclusion that should remain the project is as valid today as ten years ago.

Revenge

The user was dismissed for wanting to impose his interpretations and make personal decisions about the policies of Wikipedia, without being sysop he named other users as sysops, [20] [21] he wanted to impose a voting system with three people to take total control of the Huiquipedia; he wanted to take advantage of his best friend, Victoriano "Tepoxteco", a native speaker and he named it sysop.

Nonsense

Why a user without even having the basic knowledge of Wikipedia (native or not, with less than 200 editions) "must" be an administrator and be "ruler" about everything concerning their language when the importance lies down on the free contribution? Among them there is a previous agreement of support and self-promotion; Marrovi makes in different projects his biographical pages.[22]

Totally he has a racist stance when he wants to impose a person on others for the simple fact of being native, regardless of experience or knowledge. Excuse me? What is it that natives dont have bad feelings, no cheap thrill, no anger, no lies, no manipulations? THEN THEY ARE PERFECT PEOPLE!! Marrovi you are so wrong about this, the natives are just like you or me, they have defects and virtues, they do many bad things, they kill themselves, they rape themselves, they steal themselves but more than nothing they lie a lot too. Do they have values and honesty? So like me or you, we are the same human race.

Why does he want to close the project? All the time that he was active user he defended the portal and assured that it was an excellent project. Now he is incongruous wanting to close the portal when a process of maintenance and improvement is underway, because many of the deficiencies that existed in Huiquipedia were the result of his editions, he wants to close the project by the intrusion of non-natives when it also turns out that he was the mestizo that has done the most damage to the project, nobody made as many mistakes and manipulations as we can see in this list.

The same acts that he intends to denounce, the "mestizo" control, he applied in Huiquipedia during 2012-2015, and now cynically he is doing in Incubator, he tries to deceive us when talking about a "team" when he is the only user there, 182 pages created in the Huasteca variant and ... Where are editions from his native "friends"? He is inventing terms and copying the texts of Huiquipedia to which only the spelling changes them. Wrong work that has been asked him in the many projects he stop there, however he's showing the bigest stubbornness to keep his way to do things, it having awful consequences for him.

The user has more reasons for vengeful feelings because his recent permanent blockade of Galician Wikipedia, the direct imposition of rules to edit in the Ladin Wikipedia and the deletion of his article Teotlalpan in Italian, it motivates him to want to do the same, eliminate or shred the articles or fields where I participate in considering that I am the cause of his expulsion and that everything is a "campaign of discredit", just gossip and filth.

Yes, he wish to close the proyect by revenge and anger (we can see here on his own speech, just he want to hurt me)... and spread nonsense too (a long text-wall and edit warring). --Akapochtli (talk) 22:01, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Hell

More information

Requests for comment/Global ban for user Marrovi and Talk:Requests for comment/Global ban for user Marrovi

Text about en:Talk:Teotlalpan:

Akapochtli; Hell is an ofensive word, my nickname is Marrovi [23]. Offering users is an act of aggression that can lead to blocking. --Marrovi (talk) 20:44, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Ha, ha, ha. Do you guess? --Akapochtli (talk) 17:32, 29 September 2017 (UTC) I don't sign right here

Akapochtli's offenses in Italian

It's the site: it:Wikipedia:Pagine da cancellare/Teotlalpan

È stata creata il 10 aprile da Marrovi in questo stato, come voce sulla regione precolombiana Teotlalpan. Qualche giorno dopo Akapochtli la riscrive così, chiaramente con uso di babelfish, trasformandola in una voce di linguistica storica sul termine Teotlalpan e sui suoi usi.

Su es.wiki, la voce è stata cancellata nella prima forma (come ricerca originale) e ricreata nella seconda; Marrovi è stato bloccato infinito per vandalismi e blocchi. Su en.wiki c'è una lunga discussione con annessa editwar e template {{P}} sulla pagina.

Vista la situazione, IMHO nessuna delle due versioni della pagina è accettabile: la prima per essere una possibile/probabile ricerca originale, la seconda per essere tradotta con traduttore automatico (e secondo me rientrante pienamente nel C3) - nonché con alcune parti che sembrano essere lì solamente per confutare l'altra versione. Visto l'inghippo, secondo me la soluzione migliore è cancellare tutto--Dr ζimbu (msg) 19:29, 6 set 2017 (CEST)

Buon giorno a te Dr Zimbu. Grazie mille per l'avviso. Non ho problemi con le politiche di modifica, se ritieni che la pagina non soddisfi le necessarie, quindi prosegui, non mi oppongo alla sua cancellazione.

Permettetemi di fare due osservazioni: la versione che ho offerto deriva da una revisione approfondita dei documenti storici, cercando di essere il più neutrale possibile, cercando di metterlo in linea con la rilevanza che ha (che non è molto). In conclusione, a mio parere, vogliamo usare questo termine per esaltare l'orgoglio del regionalista, in opposizione a quello che ho fatto la mia versione; le informazioni esistenti sono scarse e la maggior parte dei ricercatori lo menziona poblemente, forse a causa di questo "il mio riepilogo" può sembrare "ricerca originale", che no, raccolgo dati che offrono un'immagine neutrale del soggetto (vedi semplicemente i riferimenti e la bibliografia).

Secondo punto, l'etichetta di "Non-neutralità" messo in versione inglese è stata posta dall'autore originale dell'articolo, che per vendetta vuole rovinare la versione che offro, quel utente dice che sono la causa del suo blocco permanente, l'espulsione è data dalle azioni proprie che ciascuno fa, non da un altro utente. Rimango ai tuoi ordini. (Scusa per la traduzione automatica) --Akapochtli (msg) 06:21, 7 set 2017 (CEST)

Is very necessary to read here; en:Talk:Teotlalpan, thank you very much.--Marrovi (msg) 06:35, 7 set 2017 (CEST)

Puoi annullare se non ha importanza, Dr, Zimbu, grazie mille per aver consigliato.--Marrovi (msg) 06:46, 7 set 2017 (CEST)

My bloking in Spanish is about Lenguas nahuanas Akapochtli (discusión · contribuciones) . . (29 824 bytes) (+252) . . (Deshecha la edición de Marrovi u otro usuario agresivo desde cuenta no registrada) (deshacer). It is intolerant Akapochtli to mock that I am blocked is Spanish because he denounces to User:Bernard that my entry of correction of non-existent Spanish terms as Lenguas nahuanas o nahuatlanas (Akapochtli's terms) by temporary block, which was the perfect excuse to ask for my permanent blocking and to look for other blocks and ask for my general bannig [24]. A person who acts with skills is not a good person for me.--Marrovi (talk) 21:06, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Ha, ha, ha. Really? --Akapochtli (talk) 17:32, 29 September 2017 (UTC) I don't sign right here

This user is good person?, The mockery is the good spirit of Wikipedia?--Marrovi (talk) 08:22, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Akapochtli, What dou you mean about it? gl:Usuario:Atobar and gl:Alejandro Tobar It's good or no good?.--Marrovi (talk) 01:23, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

I think so indigenous people are exelent persons, in their cosmovision no bloking, no war, no mockery, no envy; indigenous communities that I know in Mexico, Guatemala, Ecuador, and Peru have other values that are not shared with the ethnic groups; they in their poverty see humility, friendship, solidarity, working, team and perseverance. I love Indigenous American people.--Marrovi (talk) 01:31, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

I am ashamed to read such Mexicans as Akapochtli who speak with contempt towards the indigenous peoples, often here in wikipedia has manifested the dismissal it has for the knowledge of indigenous peoples. es:Discusión:San Juan Chamula.--Marrovi (talk) 01:53, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

I prefer 100 times that Tepoxteco be sysop of Huiquipedia because he's a native speaker and is a great person, I believe that a person as Akapochtli who despises the indigenous peoples is not worthy to maintain a position of sysop.--Marrovi (talk) 02:00, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

@Marrovi: I don't care your spechless or your bluffing; I have the reason, you don't. You're a real shamefulness for the whole community with few values. And now I tell you, you have closed the door to Tepoxteco and Teotlalili, they will never ever be sysops and you can't do nothing for change this. Then, Whom will Maria cry for? --Akapochtli (talk) 08:28, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

@Akapochtli: You are straying outside a safety zone here. Be careful.

Please understand that while the Language Committee is certainly not inclined to close this project, it does have concerns about the quality of the project, and especially about the language issues within the project. It has heard from two Nahuatl speakers (not Marrovi) of substantial concerns about the language in the project. Shortly after this RfD closes, a Spanish-speaking member of LangCom is going to open an RfC on Meta to discuss what can be done to make sure that there are native Nahuatl speakers heavily involved in the project, and that they are not marginalized by nah-0 and nah-1 contributors.

It sounds to me like you are threatening to blackball Tepoxteco and Teotlalili because Marrovi has spoken well of them. That would be highly inappropriate. Whether or not they ever become sysops should depend entirely on the quality of their contributions to the project. I'm going to count on you to enforce a rule in any future RfA that Marrovi's support is not an acceptable reason to oppose, to the extent that such votes should be discounted. If that doesn't happen we will have problems going forward. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:21, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

@StevenJ81: I appreciate your advice. But the context for me is clear:

1) They have a previous agreement, if Tepoxteco or Teotlalili become sysops then Marrovi will be unlocked and again he will be able to edit EVERYTHING he wants. I don't see honesty here.

2) I am the one who most wants to see a greater number of native speakers there. In no way does my presence inhibit his participation, it wouldn't. Very simple, if there are no speakers it is because they don't want to participate, everyone will have their personal reasons but we can't speak in a generalized way like Marrovi does, who blames our presence.

3) Tepoxteco and Teotlalili are users in Huiquipedia, nobody has limited their participation, they isolate themselves from interacting with the other users (just right here). I don't see the collaborative spirit in them or interest in improving the portal, they don't contribute with constructive comments or propose clear actions.

4) Marrovi and friends have used the Huiquipedia to promote themselves, I don't doubt that they will continue to do so. Their desire is rather to be considered "the leaders", "those who rule", because their opinions and work don't show they are aimed at building a better Huiquipedia.

5) Maybe I exaggerate when saying "never ever". But I want to see a Huiquipedia with native speakers open to dialogue, who really propose things in favor, not that they speak from the shadows and only for destructive criticism.

6) The projects in Incubator are about 8 years old, the deficiency of their development is highly visible. It is also notorious that Marrovi's actions have in no way get speakers to their own variants; is a King locked in his Ivory Tower, who uses the Incubator project to say "I promote indigenous language", without really doing much. That's where we see his biggest failure and contradicts all his speech of "leave them alone", "that mestizos don't decide", "I do integrate my native friends".

I don't want to make a blackball to this native speakers, but the previous points force us to take precautionary measures. I do not think it necessary to say that the user Cuaitl (currently active) and I are nah-4, we are the ones who are working to improve the Huiquipedia. Regards. --Akapochtli (talk) 16:30, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

OK. This got more off-topic than I intended. For now, it is enough to say that I expect that if there is a future RfA for either of these users, you will make sure the process is a fair one. Let's leave that issue aside now.

I will repeat: LangCom has concerns about language issues and participation in this wiki. Plan on participating in a Spanish-language discussion about that topic on Meta after this PCP closes. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:37, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.