User talk:Darkfrog24

From Meta, a Wikimedia project coordination wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Afrikaans | العربية | অসমীয়া | asturianu | azərbaycanca | Boarisch | беларуская | беларуская (тарашкевіца)‎ | български | বাংলা | བོད་ཡིག | bosanski | català | کوردی | corsu | čeština | Cymraeg | dansk | Deutsch | Deutsch (Sie-Form)‎ | Zazaki | ދިވެހިބަސް | Ελληνικά | emiliàn e rumagnòl | English | Esperanto | español | eesti | euskara | فارسی | suomi | français | Nordfriisk | Frysk | galego | Alemannisch | ગુજરાતી | עברית | हिन्दी | Fiji Hindi | hrvatski | magyar | հայերեն | interlingua | Bahasa Indonesia | Ido | íslenska | italiano | 日本語 | ქართული | ភាសាខ្មែរ | 한국어 | kar | kurdî | Limburgs | lietuvių | Minangkabau | македонски | മലയാളം | молдовеняскэ | Bahasa Melayu | မြန်မာဘာသာ | مازِرونی | Napulitano | नेपाली | Nederlands | norsk nynorsk | norsk | occitan | Kapampangan | polski | português | português do Brasil | پښتو | Runa Simi | română | русский | संस्कृतम् | sicilianu | سنڌي | සිංහල | slovenčina | slovenščina | Soomaaliga | shqip | српски / srpski | svenska | ślůnski | தமிழ் | тоҷикӣ | ไทย | Türkmençe | Tagalog | Türkçe | татарча/tatarça | ⵜⴰⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖⵜ  | українська | اردو | oʻzbekcha/ўзбекча | vèneto | Tiếng Việt | 吴语 | 粵語 | 中文(简体)‎ | 中文(繁體)‎ | +/-

Welcome to Meta![edit]

Hello, Darkfrog24. Welcome to the Wikimedia Meta-Wiki! This website is for coordinating and discussing all Wikimedia projects. You may find it useful to read our policy page. If you are interested in doing translations, visit Meta:Babylon. You can also leave a note on Meta:Babel or Wikimedia Forum if you need help with something (please read the instructions at the top of the page before posting there). Happy editing!

--Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:58, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

RFC[edit]

Thanks for starting the RFC at Requests for comment/Designated space for editors to give and seek advice about topic bans and other sanctions. Has anyone notified Arbcom or the Foundation? The pinging system now works across multiple wikis. —Neotarf (talk) 21:14, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I mentioned to a member of ArbCom that I was helping with the proposal as part of a conversation that we were having about something else a few weeks ago.
The best place to post alerts would probably be Village Pump Policy or Village Pump Proposals. If for no other reason than the degree to which I've seen enforcing admins complain about being too busy to answer questions, and there are other reasons, it might be best to let ArbCom and AE regulars come in at their own pace than to think that we're demanding their full and immediate attention. TBH I'd also like to see this get some more community support. Even the Supreme Court reads the newspapers, as they say. If it's clear that this is something the community wants, then even if the arbitrators don't approve the noticeboard, they're less likely to think it unreasonable that they were asked.
Just in case it's not clear, my view is that for this board to work on Wikipedia, it would require ArbCom's approval. Most noticeboards wouldn't, but this one has to be a topic-ban-free zone. Meta-Wiki is outside their jurisdiction, but that's pretty close to a technicality, so it would still be a huge plus to have it here as well. It's only a question of when and how to bring it to them. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:44, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
All you would need is for a couple of them to show up and comment, like they do on the WP criticism sites. Might put Mr. 2001 out of business though. Hmm, maybe the Foundation would help...? —Neotarf (talk) 00:09, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't follow you. "Mr. 2001"? And what do the arbitrators do on WP criticism sites? I also have to wonder if you mean "all you would need to sink the proposal" or "all you would need to get approval" but both are true, so it's a bit moot. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:22, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Discussion of such sites is often discouraged on Wikimedia projects because of their habit of doxing Wikimedians, see WP:BADSITES, but "Mr. 2001" should work as a search term on Jimbo's talk page. —Neotarf (talk) 01:35, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Appeal text[edit]

Do please ask questions. We've had trouble communicating and I think that would help. There have been zero attempts at block evasion and I have continued making contributions to other parts of Project Wiki.

Since you're so busy, I've written a summary and if you want to decide based on this alone, fine with me: 1) I ask you to lift the block because the reasons for it no longer apply and because of my good and heavily collaborative work at the Spanish Wikipedia and Wikinews. 2) I ask you to lift the topic ban because my work at Wikinews shows that it continues to be unnecessary.

At Wikinews, I received the team barnstar and about thirty articles made the main page. One reviewer said they were "very glad to have [me] about." I was also thanked by a reader. Apparently I "bring real value" to the project. Thanked My contributions to discussions there have been appreciated [1]. Other users have asked for my help by name. Discussions of style issues, including what would fall under ENGVAR on Wikipedia, proceeded without incident.[2][3] My request for reviewer status at Wikinews has received two supports, one plan-to-support, no opposes.

At the Spanish Wikipedia, I was nominated for autoverificado status for translating the Euryarchaeota subcategory.

To be clear, this is a bock appeal, but you do have both the authority to lift both block and topic ban right now and you have additional grounds to do so that did not exist last November. My work at Wikinews demonstrates that it is not necessary, and removing it would simplify things considerably.

Opabinia once told me that it's important to figure out why I was blocked. After talking with Robert and Euryalus, it seems that reasonable adults can come to different conclusions on this. You'll be pleased to know I've addressed all of them.

Some of the facts are clear: The then-enforcing admin of the topic ban issued last January filed to have me blocked in response to a post in which I presented some evidence proving that I hadn't done some of the things of which I'd been accused. I believed I was allowed to do this under WP:BANEX's "ask the enforcing admin to reconsider." Also, after the fact, Opabinia Regalis suggested that I do this, so I'm pretty sure that just showing the enforcing admin exonerating evidence wasn't the problem.

  1. Rob thinks that this admin just didn't know I was using one of WP:BANEX's appeal options and that if I'd been more clear about that and expressly asked permission in advance, there wouldn't have been an issue.
  2. The block notice says I was blocked because of "constant relitigation of the topic ban." This is not accurate as far as facts are concerned. That post to the enforcing admin was the first time I'd attempted to get the topic ban changed. Once isn't constantly.
  3. I think I was blocked for volume. The AE admins were tired of hearing me talk about the topic ban and ask questions about how it worked. Even though no one post between them and me broke any rules, collectively they tired them out. "Constant relitigation" works if it isn't meant to be factual but rather a description of how they felt or the impression they got. This makes sense if we focus on Wikipedia as a community and not a legal system.


If it was #1, as of this past February 1, I became eligible to file a very clearly labeled formal appeal at AE whenever I feel ready to do so, and plan to cite which policy I am following very strictly should any similar situation arise in the future. Even if you don't lift the topic ban today, the reason for the block no longer applies. For #3, I've spent months reading AE and ARCA cases to internalize some of the unwritten rules and wouldn't need to ask so many questions. Examples upon request.

So if you lift the block but not the ban, what would I do? 1) The same stuff I was doing before I was blocked: Game of Thrones, Hadesarchaea, RSN, 3O, NPOVN, WP:COPYEDIT. 2) The English versions of the Euryarchaeota subcategory could use an update. 3) More Wikinews. 4) This WikiTribune thing intrigues me.

Because there are some places on Wikipedia where silence is interpreted as confession, I must end with this: The original accusations against me are not true. This is relevant here because it means you can trust me to continue never gaslighting anyone, continue never ignoring sources, continue never posting fake claims, continue never calling anyone names, and so on. There's no bad habit to break there. If you want to know what I do plan to do differently at WT:MOS, ask.

With thanks to RobertInventor and others for helping with the review of this draft. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:36, 28 April 2017 (UTC)


I got this message from Gorilla Warfare today:

The Arbitration Committee has carefully considered your appeal, and our decision is to decline your appeal at this time. We are concerned both that you do not seem to understand or accept why you were blocked in the first place, and that as a result of this, you do not offer any indication of how you will conduct yourself differently so as to avoid further conflicts.

In six months, you may re-appeal, but we advise that at that time you explain what how you would behave if unblocked, what you have learned from being blocked, and that you have not edited through sockpuppets in the previous six months. As we have gone back and forth quite extensively on this appeal with both you and Robert, we will not be considering appeals lodged within the next six months; as such, you may not receive responses to any emails sent to the Arbitration Committee within that time period. Please also note that we will only consider appeals of your account from you; appeals and arguments on your behalf from others will not be considered.

When contacting this committee or responding to any of our messages, please ensure that arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org is in the "to" or "cc" field of any reply you make to this message. Messages sent only to me or another individual arbitrator may not be read.

For the Arbitration Committee,

GorillaWarfare [Real name removed]

And here is my response:

you do not seem to understand or accept why you were blocked in the first place

If this is the problem, the solution is extremely simple: Tell me.

I have to ask at this point: Do you know why I was blocked? Are you not telling me because you don't know?

I was assuming good faith by not mentioning this but is it "SMcCandlish is a special editor and you were blocked as a favor to him"? Is it "Whenever a Wikipedia editor is punished for anything, they must act as if they did it even if they did not; they must act as if AE admins never make mistakes"?

have not edited through sockpuppets in the previous six months

That is what I mean by "zero attempts at block evasion." I have never used sock puppets in my life. I also haven't edited Wikipedia while not logged in.

Darkfrog24 (talk) 10:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Conversation[edit]

en:TonyBalloni

I find myself a bit alarmed by something you said in your message to me: "Abuse of on-wiki email function." I am afraid I don't know what you're talking about. I click the "email this user" link to talk to people sometimes, but I'm not aware that this is against any rules. Wikipedia's ArbCom has said on many occasions that their authority applies solely to the English Wikipedia. Is this about my conversation with en:5 albert square? Would you please direct me to the Wikipedia page listing the policy covering use of the "email this user" function? Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:42, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

wikinews and COVID-19[edit]

Hi Darkfrog24 I happened to see the file you are working on in your userspace. If things were not so heated at wikinews I would have made a couple of edits in it, but I like very much the gist.

Do you get notified when someone posts to your meta page?

Cheers, Ottawahitech (talk) 15:10, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

I have also posted (I am almost sure I did) to pizeros meta page, but it no longer appears in my contributions, I think? Ottawahitech (talk) 15:14, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, and you said the message I posted for you on your talk page too. Weird. I'd think "maybe the system needed me to hit 'submit' twice as it sometimes does," but you saw my message, so it must have been there at some point.
I think it's more likely a glitch than that Pi zero erased your message. There would be some record of it in any case.
I am in a bad way over all this, but I stand by what I said: So long as it's the same rules for everyone, even strict or strange rules can work.
As for my essay, I'm just doing what I kept telling Pi and G to do: Write an essay and work out what you want to say before proposing it. I was not quite yet at the point where I would invite the community to participate, but if you want to comment or make some test modifications, go ahead. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:24, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
Well things move fast here and my posting about the mysterious disappearance was explained by Pi Zero which was very nice of them because I started doubting my sanity Lol. Anyway, i am goung tostay awa from wikinews for now, and if you decide u need a break too, maybe youll consider working on your essay at Meta. Take care, Ottawahitech (talk) 03:05, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
I haven't gone back to look at the AAA or the water cooler talk and I may wait a good long time before doing so, but I think I should just get back to writing the news. Maybe then everyone will remember that's what it's all about.
Oh, speaking of which, I just started a new article at Simple, PittCoVacc based on my latest Wikinews draft. There's a vaccine that seems to work in mice. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:09, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘

Hi DF,

Pleasantries:The latest development at wn makes it very difficult for me to communicate with you publicly here at meta. it is now a one way street. I am blocked at sw so I cannot afford to say anything that can be construed as proxy-editing , and vice verse, you can no longer discuss your experience on wn without committing the proxy-editing-sin. This is a very serious wiki-offence that can get you completely locked out of any wmf-site.

Personal commentary: This state of affairs is really really sad for wikimedians who come from countries where people have grown up believing that free speech is their god-given right. But since the wikimedia movement is now increasingly controlled by users who come from non-free-speech countries, we wiIl have to learn new ways of communicating if we want to survive. Can you teach old dogs new tricks?

wishes:I wish I could comment on the two new COVID-19-related articles you have added to sw, sigh...

passing on technchnical expertise:Oh yes, just a general comment about wiki-categories: they are easy come-easy go. When someone deletes a category item all connections it had with the main topic disappear without a trace, unlike wiki-links entrenched in the wiki-text, which turn red when they are deleted. So if there is no text-list corresponding to the category, you really have to watch it very carefully to make sure your new articles stay linked to the main topic. You can't even afford to take any holidays, because while you are gone someone can empty the category and it will be deleted with no notice. You can sort of get around this by putting a link to your items in the main article if they fit, or at least adding them to the see also section, if not. If someone reverts the edit, at least it is still in the history and may be revived later by an observant future editor. I hope I am making sense?

pleasnatries:Another btw, both your failed stories on wn had followups on cnns wolf blitzer who interviewed w:David Shulkin responding to trumps criticism of the ships captian, and right afterwards another one about the vaccine. Just trying to encourage you to keep writing, you are obviously touching a raw nerve. Cheers, Ottawahitech (talk) 01:42, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

To any patroller passing by: I tried very hard not to break any of the rules here. If I did, I would appreciate being notified about it and being given a chance to correct it. Thanks in advance, Ottawahitech (talk) 01:42, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh my goodness, you're right about casual conversation being mistaken for proxy. I'm sorry for putting you in that position. And thank you for reminding me. The last thing either of us needs is more drama.
I don't know what free speech has to do with things. I think it's more of a personality conflict and attitudes about egalitarianism.
Eh, I don't consider Wikinews stories that time out "failed." Freshness be a harsh mistress. Does a fisherman who casts his line over and over consider it a failed trip if not every cast brings back a fish? Wait, maybe they do. I don't fish... Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:48, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

trump/croziers[edit]

I was looking for the trump video which was shown on CNN TV at google by clicking video in my search (and expecting a youtube, just to refresh my memory), and to my surprise I was presented with a barrage of reliable text stories that included different videos of trump talking about this incident. I still cannot locate the video that was present on cnn (which I thought was more to the point): https://nationalpost.com/news/world/covid-19-dismissed-u-s-carrier-captain-gets-heros-ovation-after-speaking-out-on-virus-fears

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/04/coronavirus-trump-defends-navy-capt-croziers-firing/2948742001/

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/04/trump-says-navy-captain-letter-asking-for-help-on-coronavirus-stricken-ship-was-terrible.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/brett-cozier-trump-terrible-coronavirus-warship_n_5e8908d1c5b6cc1e47769d8e

https://www.thedailybeast.com/al-gores-advice-to-president-trump-resign

Cheers, Ottawahitech (talk) 02:13, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

It's odd to say about anything to do with Trump, but this conversation is calming my nerves, but for both our sakes, let's talk about something that isn't the subject of recent Simple activity by either of us. I should hate to think I was part of getting you in trouble. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:29, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Oh dear. While looking for something interesting to chat with you about, I saw an article I really want to use to add content to Simple... Worse problems to have, right? Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:34, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Projects pages at coronation[edit]

I think it is fairly safe for both of us to participate on this meta page? (trying out the Add topic button that I see for the first time in my edit page) btw don't worry about getting me in trouble, I seem to be able to do this all by myself. Just remind me if I forget I am under suspicion :-) Ottawahitech (talk) 17:06, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

I think you're probably right. But I'm not really sure what this page is. The only Meta project I participated in was years ago and very clearly defined. What is it that they want people to do here? Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
You better ask this at talk:Coronation. Cheers (I do not own this page even though I seem to have become the main content contributor, sigh). Ottawahitech (talk) 18:05, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

News sources[edit]

Involvement in enwiki for many years has channelled me, and others, to look for reliable sources to find information. In these days of covid this is proving both difficult and possibly dangerous.

Why is it difficult?

Because things are moving very fast. This is not a matter of building up an en encylopedia, it is a matter of life and death. I cannot wait a few days until google bubbles up a reliable source for some fact I am looking for, so I turn to watching TV when I can get to it.

Where I am located the choice of news stations is rather limited. All I get is 3 American news channels, and two canadian ones + 1 american business news channel and another business channel with an unclear affiliation.

I would love to have access to other news sources. For example the BBC, but I don't.

which channels are freely available in your part of the world?

Why is it dangerous?

I started out watching mostly CNN, because I thought an american news channel provided more efficient and open information about the state of affairs. However, as things develop I find CNN more and more inclined to support a war-like tendency. It seems to follow Trump's eagerness to talk about this infection as a war on an invisible(?) enemy. There have been interviews with people comparing the covid situation with Pearl Harbor, etc. There have been too many reports challenging the Chinese to defend their actions hinting they are responsible for this pandemic.

I have never understood the fascinsation of the brits and canadians with the queen of england, but I have changed my mind after seeing her address to the citizens of the United kingdom, which finally trickled into American news a few days after she gave it.

Am i making sense? Ottawahitech (talk) 15:45, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

I regret that you are not entirely making sense, but I believe I can solve one of your problems: Not getting Corona news fast enough.
[www.Eurekalert.com] is where top labs post their press releases. It's where I got the base for my Wikinews stories about PittCoVacc, FrogPhone, oh most of them in fact. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:42, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Shooting the breeze[edit]

I don't know if you can understand the feeling, but everyday before I start editing, I approach the keyboard with apprehension hoping I will not face the now familiar Block message box, then rush over to make the edit I have been thinking of in a real hurry, just to get it done before I am kicked off. That's all for now, keep at it you are doing great IMIO. Ottawahitech (talk) 14:09, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't feel like I'm doing great but it does my heart good to hear it from you. Yes, I've felt a similar way to that. Recently, though, it's more the yellow "you have new messages" mark that has me going "oh what now?" Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:13, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

nanny state[edit]

I see the image of the captain on TV right now, so I assume this story is still smoldering. This is meant to be posted on your talk page. Just trying to avoid the yellow "you have new messages" mark, which I don't believe you get when someone posts to your user page instead of to your user talkpage?~~~~

I tried to post the above to your user page yesterday, but the system would not let me. Cheers Ottawahitech (talk) 16:02, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

That's odd. Which TV caption did you mean, Ottawa? Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:03, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
The caption you wrote an article about recently, I think. Ottawahitech (talk) 16:09, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
The only caption I wrote recently was "[Person's name] in 2014" in an article on Simple. Great minds think alike, I guess? Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:30, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
I am just spinning my wheels hoping someone will do something at Coronation. wishful thinking - go back to work ;-) Ottawahitech (talk) 16:49, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Maybe make it a little clearer what the page is for and what you want people to do there. I must confess I couldn't quite tell. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:50, 8 April 2020 (UTC)