Talk:Movement Learning and Leadership Development Project

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What is framework?[edit]

Hello, I’m not sure to understand the term “framework” in this text. Could you explain me what will concretly consist the created “framework”? —Pols12 (talk) 00:18, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi Pols12
Sorry for the late reply.
It means "structure" or "framing", that you can translate by "structure" (how convenient!) or "cadre" in French.
thank you very much for your help! Trizek (WMF) (talk) 17:35, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Is there a way to take part without being exploited by Google?[edit]

Google is not an exceptable venue for any kind of data research, they live off data mining and privacy raping. How can people with a conscience take part in this survey? Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 21:02, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

BTW: Ich komme hierher, wo die deWP, mal wieder nur auf englisch, wie es sich für die anglozentristisch-arrogante WMF so gehört (ich schreibe hier extra auf Deutsch, damit siche diese Arroganzlinge mal eine ander Sprache anhören müssen, Hoffnung auf Lesen habe ich wenig), auf dieses Projekt hingewiesen wurde, und dabei gab es einen Link auf irgendwas bei Google, und da ist nicht akzeptabel. Google ist böse. Welche akzeptable Alternative zu dem inakzeptablen Googleschrott kann die WMF anbieten? Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 21:32, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
at least the google surveillance does not hound you, lie about your actions, and erase your work in a summary way, unlike wikipedia. clearly they need to organize conversations off wiki, and they will go where the best software is. non-leaders with unconscionable idealism need not engage. Slowking4 (talk) 22:24, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
+1 zu Sänger. Warum soll ich ein Google-Konto einrichten, um ein Formular an WMF senden zu können? warum soll Google meine Daten sammeln und mir über das Google-Konto zuordnen dürfen? Warum ist die technikaffine Organisation WMF, die ganze Serverparks betreibt, nicht in der Lage, selbst ein simples Formular aufzusetzen und die Daten in einer eigenen simplen Datenbank zu sammeln? Warum haben nur Menschen mit ausreichenden Englisch-Sprachkenntnissen Zugang? --Quarz (talk) 09:53, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
non-leaders with unconscionable idealism? WTF is this neo-liberalistic corporate dumbspeak for? OP has a very valid point. Seb az86556 (talk) 07:37, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
Quarz hat hielendal gelyk. De WMF hat jild genôch en hat technysk besjoen alles yn hûs om sels in side mei fragen te meitsjen en earne op in server del te setten. Dêr hat se Google net foar nedich. De kar foar Google is in kar foar it goedkeapste paad en boppedat in middelfinger nei it konsept privacy. Wa't immen dy't dêr muoite mei hat unconscionable idealism yn 'e skuon skoot, beweecht himsels op nivo DH1 op de skaal fan Graham. Wutsje (talk) 19:08, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Participant Selection[edit]

Falls ihr Limitations Eurer Untersuchung sucht: Ihr sucht offensichtlich nur Leute die Englisch sprechen. Anders kann ich mir zumindest nicht erklären warum die Info-Spammerei nur auf englisch erfolgt und auch der Fragebogen wohl Englisch-Kentnisse voraussetzt und ich vermute auch die Interviews sind nur in Englisch geplant? - Damit ist das ganze abolstut Anglo-zentrisch und für die Erketnissgewinnung für eine Organisation die glaubt eine globale Bewegung zu führen nutzlos ... Also Lesson Nr. 1 für das "Movement Learning" - das Movement spricht in vielen Teilen kein (ausreichendes) Englisch um mit dem Führungsschiff zu sprechen. Daraus leitet sich Lern-Lesson Nr. 2 ab: wenn du mit dem einfachen Volk sprechen willst musst Du auch die Sprache des Volkes sprechen (Früher® wurde Latein genutzt um das Volk ignorieren zu können). ... und da diese Info nicht neu ist sondern seit Jahren (wahrscheinlich ist es schon ein Jahrzehnt) immer und immer wiederholt wird kommen wir zu Lesson learned Nr. 3: Die Lernkurve von WMF ist extrem flach oder (aber das wäre dann kein AGF mehr) WMF gibt einen Scheiß auf die Meinung des Volkes und tut nur so. Aber wie gesagt, das wäre gegen AGF) ...Sicherlich Post 11:25, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

@Sicherlich: I'm not sure they even want people who know English. Consider this: "We will develop an iterative learning and leadership development model that will allow volunteers/contributors to pursue a development pathway that meets their needs and allows flexible movement between different types of movement engagement." ---- I speak English every day, but "?????"... Seb az86556 (talk) 08:04, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
User talk:Seb az86556: 😂 it sounds smarter and much more educated if you write it that way. I assume they are searching for ideas to make seminars for Wikipedians at al. But look how dull that sounds 😉 ...Sicherlich Post 08:57, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
I added the requirement of speaking english on an at least very good level. Makes no sense if people with basic or non English bother to participate ...Sicherlich Post 09:14, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

User:LMiranda (WMF) I reverted you partly. Its obvious that english is required. If you don't agree please explain. Just reverting without using the talkpage is simply the start von an Editwar ...Sicherlich Post 07:12, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

@Sicherlich: please see my response in the new topic below. If you have further questions, please address me directly rather than making incorrect changes to the page. Thank you. LMiranda (WMF) (talk) 05:29, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

User:LMiranda (WMF) address me directly? like sending you several pings or using your talkpage? I did that. it was you who choose to ignore it frankly ...Sicherlich Post 06:15, 28 January 2020 (UTC) and it was not only me who pinged you, used your talkpage and this page here

Why is the WMF doing this in isolation?[edit]

Hello - this looks like a very interesting project. But why has the WMF initiated this project without involving anyone outside the WMF? The WMF is not ultimately going to succeed in delivering the objectives of these projects if it treats 'the community' as some kind of mysterious other to be investigated rather than a partner. This was one of the issues with the "movement organisers" work, which produced a lengthy report detailing conclusions that were often blindingly obvious to people who were actually embedded within the groups you were trying to look at, and could have had much more insight if they had been approached as partners not subject of investigation. There are a bunch of people in affiliates or just involved in the community generally who could also make a useful contribution to this work (my starting point would be pretty much any of the people involved in the Capacity Building working group). Thanks, and apologies for the rant Chris Keating (The Land) (talk) 11:49, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your insight. In addition to partnering with the community on the research to hear from a diverse sample of our volunteers we will also share the research outcomes here to collect feedback, suggestions, interpretations, and questions before finalizing the framework. LMiranda (WMF) (talk) 22:48, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Anyone who speaks English on a a very good level is welcome[edit]

to honest, I have to translate this as follows: "We dont care about critics, so we excluded the majority of the users beforehand. And in particular we do not want the rebells from Germany, Austria and Switzerland" --Heinrich Siemers (talk) 13:33, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

I put it in to show the fact. Officially one Surely does not need to speak english. But without you can't participate ;) - as one can see Lauren Miranda as the project leader does not care to answer what is written here, on her talkpage or with pings elswhere. Even if one writes in english ...Sicherlich Post 07:23, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Google account required[edit]

Contrary to the assertion of WMF employees, a Google Account is required. If that were allowed, I would upload a scene shot with the request. --Quarz (talk) 19:23, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Would it be possible to provide more information? I have not been able to reproduce − I tried opening the link in my normal window, a container window, my gmail container window, and the Tor Browser, and there was not anything related to a Google Account being required.
I imagine you may upload a screenshot to one of the many external throwaway image hosting website out there ; and barring that, describing exactly what happens (is there a message saying « a Google Account is required » ? Are you being asked to login? Are you redirected to a login screen? etc. etc.) would be helpful in understanding what is happening.
Jean-Fred (talk) 21:57, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
I think they changed it. Try again Quarz. (An information one would expect to get from the people doing this project. But communication is not their thing it seems. ...Sicherlich Post 07:25, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
@Sicherlich: Yes, it has changed. Now it works without Google account. @Jean-Frédéric: Maybe you don't need to login – because you are with your active gmail account. Sorry, I don't feed such image hosting websites.--Quarz (talk) 09:17, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
maybe […] because you are with your active gmail account → please read what I wrote: I had ensured I was not-logged-in Google in multiple ways − Private browsing, container tab, and using the Tor Browser.
Regarding such image hosting website: for the record, there are open-source, encrypted, privacy-consciours, temporary image sharing platforms, such as Framapic. But of course, up to you, hence me asking you to describe in words (if not in pictures) the situation, so it can be better understood and investigated.
Jean-Fred (talk) 10:34, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
There is the whole Wikiverse here, and tons of paid developers, why go to something as bad as Google in regard of data safety at all? No, such privacy raping enterprises like Google, Facebook, Twitter, Amazon etc. should be avoided at nearly all costs, they are plain evil. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 11:02, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
@Jean-Frédéric: There are no big things to investigate but a modal window says "Zum Fortfahren anmelden. Sie müssen angemeldet sein, um dieses Formular auszufüllen..." and shows a link "Anmelden". What leads this link to? You gess right – its the Google login formular. --Quarz (talk) 11:14, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

In response to comments[edit]

Thank you to those who have offered productive feedback on this project; constructive criticism is always welcome and we invite dialogue that is inline with our friendly space policy. I’d like to address the concerns brought forth.

Use of Google Forms - The settings for the participation form have been changed and you do not need a Google account to complete this. Thank you @Quarz: for flagging this restriction. The data collected will be used in accordance with our privacy policy. For more information on privacy and data-handling, please see the survey privacy statement.

Concerns about English centrism - The intent of this project is to hear from our diverse, global community. To reach our communities and make participation more accessible, we have requested translation support for the meta page, outreach message, and google surveys and currently have the google form translated into 8 additional languages which are now listed on the meta page (and were distributed to corresponding village pumps). Additionally, the form collects information on native language as well as what languages a participant is able to conduct an interview in. We will then use this information to determine what translation support is needed to conduct interviews.

Concerns about working in isolation - The need for this work comes out of the Medium term plan Thriving Movement outcomes. Additionally, the insight gained through this research and the resources created from it will support many of the recommendations put forth by the Movement Strategy recommendations. Further, this research, similar to the Movement Organizers research, helps establish clarity, baseline data, and more widespread understanding of our volunteers, and communities. Using community informed approaches such as this allows us to work in partnership with our movement to create improved, contextually relevant, and impactful programming that acts in response and support of the needs of our global movement. Although some of the information collected in these research projects may be obvious to some, it is not obvious to all, and therefore it is important to mitigate against assumptions and create accessible information that acts in the service of our mission. LMiranda (WMF) (talk) 05:22, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much, that it took only several pings, the use of your talkpage and finally changes on the meta page to get an reaction of you. And all this only took some days! 👍 ...Sicherlich Post 06:24, 28 January 2020 (UTC) The friendly space policy? While there is no translatation into german I can only guess that it does not apply here as it is for in-person Wikimedia community gatherings, right?
Re; Use of Google Forms: You still have not given one reason to use the untrustworthy Google at all, using Google is in itself a sign of not being aware of privacy concerns at all. Google must not be trusted.
Re: Friendly space policy and isolation: Working on-wiki ist the only valid place for discussions here, you have not answered any concerns anywhere in any place on-wiki until this post, that is definitely not friendly. (Using Google at all is something very unfriendly as well.) Unless you start interacting with the community in a valid, i.e. on-wiki, way, you are not friendly. The WMF has tons of money, so translation in at least the main, say 15, languages is no problem of ressources, and not doing it is willful neglect of friendlyness. The WMF nearly never bothers to translate any of the mass messages to the projects to any language. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 08:30, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
I have concerns about the validity of the data you acquire through this process. By reaching out to the german speaking community in english with the english survey (which I just completed), you created a selection bias favoring english speaking editors (that also read the discussion page of their village pump). In my opinion, a better approach would have been to complete the translations to the 8 or so largest language groups, then promoting the survey to a wide range of users via... well, I don't know how to say that in english. Kind of like the donation campaign, but for a random set of users that just logged into their account. --Jaax (talk) 09:16, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
Jaax User:LMiranda (WMF) asks to address me directly - so this page, even with a ping, or her user talkpage do not count! Please give her a call if you want to be heard! Its +1-415-839-6885 ...Sicherlich Post 10:04, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
too bad that the google hatred is getting in the way of becoming a leader. the purity ideology may play well in certain on-wiki venues, but marginalizes the critique. WMF is going to organize some leader management, in their imperfect WMF way. if you want to be a leader you might want to meet them where they are. or you could remain a non-leader. Slowking4 (talk) 00:28, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
This repsonse, and the whole issue itself, begs the question if our "movement" needs any sort of "leaders" at all. The answer must surely be "no" if you define "leader" as "loudmouth who orders other people around". Indeed, almost any definition of "leader" boils down to this. So, no leaders for me, please. --Segelschulschiff Pyramus (talk) 01:00, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
This is not some corporate money-making whore-operation that needs to be a leader. This is a not-for-profit endeavor. Read the vision statement; nowhere does it say "Imagine a world where we make ourselves look pretty to every person, so weʼll be a leader and kick facebookʼs ass." Seb az86556 (talk) 03:32, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
It's even worse: Some people (like me) have a leader hatred. Maybe it's because we in Germany did not have so good experiences with our great leader/Führer in the past. Even when I worked as a local sysop, I did this in the spirit of serving the community, helping the authors, not leading them. The authors are the ones, that everything in this "movement" should circle around. They should be empowered to do everything that is needed to build the projects. Other than in hierarchical enterprise structures, where people work for money and follow orders from the management, the volunteers in the projects don't have to be led in their contributions (generally they have the most knowledge in their contributed areas) and the majority of them don't want to be led by anyone, when they spend their rare freetime in the projects, to relax from their work with a meaningful hobby. --Magiers (talk) 08:25, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
There is every reason to be critical of the way that Google uses our free labor and encourage people to look for ways to build an "ecosystem" of free, open source tools that facilitate communication. If we look at our strategic goal and consider the dangers that depending on tools from the surveillance society poses to knowledge equity, we might even come to the conclusion that the best thing the WMF could do right now is hire a group of developers to create a suite of tools that facilitate the creation and dissemination of free knowledge, and restore privacy. And if we're going to write a charter, not being required to submit to corporate surveillance in order to participate in "the movement" would be high on my list. Vexations (talk) 11:59, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Defining "leadership"[edit]

For the purpose of launching this project, and further for the intent of the Community Development team, we are currently utilizing an informal definition of leadership which we see as a "set of skills, values, and mindsets that revolve around motivating a group of people to act in support of a common goal". I've read this sentence several times in the past couple of weeks now, but I still don't get it. I read the words, but again and again their meaning escapes me. Do you realise that this definition of leadership even applies to the skills, values, and mindsets of Mao Zedong motivating millions of people to support the common goal of the Cultural Revolution?
I've been constructively active on quite a few WMF projects for many years now, but this kind of management speak really makes me think there is an already colossal, but still widening gap between the WMF management and the many, many anonymous volunteers who made the growth of the Foundation over the years possible in the first place. It all feels rather Weberian to me.
And no, I will not participate in the survey. I simply don't trust Google, privacy statements are just words, nobody knows what happens behind the curtains, and I lack proficiency in English (my third language) to meaningfully contribute to anything of this. I'm sorry. In my opinion and with all due respect, the money should be spent on preventing things like this and this. Regards, Wutsje (talk) 19:30, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Well said. Thanks. --PiefPafPier (talk) 09:03, 8 February 2020 (UTC)