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::::::::::::The most eloquent rhetoric without any experience is still bs. Knowledge is something you earn, not that you magically start with. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[user talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 03:31, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::::The most eloquent rhetoric without any experience is still bs. Knowledge is something you earn, not that you magically start with. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[user talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 03:31, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Knowledge is something you learn, its not something you close your ears to because you can't abide others encroaching on your poor reasoning. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] 13:53, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Knowledge is something you learn, its not something you close your ears to because you can't abide others encroaching on your poor reasoning. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] 13:53, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Learning requires time. Those who suddenly appear have no chance to learn. By your own statement new people should be flat out ignored and directed to other parts of the project and told to help out before they try to participate in sensitive consensus processes. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[user talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 16:04, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


*[http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meta%3ARequests_for_deletion&action=historysubmit&diff=3425123&oldid=3425114] More en.wiki people removing comments. Why is this vandalism allowed? Why are en.wiki people allowed to remove standard responses at will? What gives them the right to come onto Meta and start bossing people around? And if their comments were removed, would they not throw a fit? [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[user talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 15:17, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
*[http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meta%3ARequests_for_deletion&action=historysubmit&diff=3425123&oldid=3425114] More en.wiki people removing comments. Why is this vandalism allowed? Why are en.wiki people allowed to remove standard responses at will? What gives them the right to come onto Meta and start bossing people around? And if their comments were removed, would they not throw a fit? [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[user talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 15:17, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

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Meta-Wiki has a small active community. When a normal user requires the assistance of an [[<tvar|sysop>Special:MyLanguage/Meta:Administrators</>|administrator]] or [[<tvar|bureaucrat>Special:MyLanguage/Meta:Bureaucrats</>|bureaucrat]] for some particular task, it is not always easy to find one. This page helps users find one when they need one; asking specific admins directly via their talk pages is one way to elicit a fast response. It is only for assistance required at Meta-Wiki, help for other wikis needs to be requested at those wikis.

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Question

The following discussion is closed: question asked and answered, remainder of topic matters if ongoing and relevant to this forum should be started as their own topics

I wonder, if there's any policy at meta that prohibits me from publishing emails I got from members of arbcom. The emails in question are directly related to this request. I do not believe that emails sent by members of arbcom about an arbitration case could be considered "private" at least not private in concerning arbcom. There's no any info in these emails that could not have been absolutely safely posted on Wiki. If one is quoting some copyright material, one should use quotation marks and provide the name of the author, as I will of course. Are there any other concerns? Thanks.--Mbz1 07:01, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that there are processes to undertake, and you should be consulting the authors of the emails about this, not looking to ask a third parties to approve an act for which we have next to no information. billinghurst sDrewth 07:07, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The authors do not want to talk to me, but they do make false comments about these emails on English wiki, where they blocked me for filing my RFC on meta, although my latest contributions to English wikipedia before the block was made 2 months ago, and although I was under a self-requested block there. It is very nice to silence somebody like they did, and then make false statements. But once again, when I used to write articles on English wiki, and used copy-righted quotes, I simply put them in quotation marks, and provided the names of the authors. I've never asked for permissions to do it. As I stated above I believe the emails that were cc to at least 17 persons should not be private in concerning to arbcom. They are private concerning me, but I'd like to publish these. --Mbz1 12:20, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Linking or quoting emails from, say, public mailing lists shouldn't be a problem, but if you want to publish an email someone has written to you in private you need to have their permission first. Jafeluv 12:39, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I published two emails (from public mailing lists only), but was reverted. So may I put them back please?Thanks.--Mbz1 12:47, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If they're in public mailing lists, why don't you just link them? Thanks, Nemo 21:40, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
These two emails were sent by two members of arbcom to my personal email account, and cc to list of arbitrators. These were responses to my request for arbitration. I do not believe they post such communications on line.--Mbz1 22:01, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So it's not a public mailing list and you can't quote it without permission, please don't insist. Nemo 22:03, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I do not insist. I am simply trying to understand two things:
  1. Are emails from arbcom that is an official body on English wikipedia are considered to be private in regards to arbcom.
  2. What is the difference between quoting text from a copyrighted book or a magazine and quoting the text from these emails. Thanks.--Mbz1 22:11, 10 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Books and magazines are published. Emails aren't. Seb az86556 01:32, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Would an admin please indef block Mbz1. They are misusing this wiki to carry on defamation and a personal feud at Requests for comment/Gwen Gale and other pages. The user is banned from en-Wikipedia already. Meta is not the place to post complaints about long ago settled matters on en-Wikipedia. The page serves no purpose other than to defame the target. Jehochman 02:03, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is no emergency and I see no reason to rush the discussion to a close. Malcolm Schosha 02:09, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Malcolm is another banned en-Wikipedia editor, a sockpuppeteer. We do not allow banned users to form a gang for the purpose of harassing and defaming our contributors. You should cease your harassment immediately. The RFC needs to be closed because meta is not a platform to smear living people, or for banned users to carry out a vendetta once they have exhausted their appeals on en-Wikipedia. Jehochman 02:12, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am site banned on en-WP. But I was not banned for socking. And your argument is an ad hominem argument, which is by definition a logical fallacy. Malcolm Schosha 02:17, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You were banned, and you have a sock puppet account that has been indef blocked. Excuse me for mixing up the two. The conclusion holds--your reputation on en-Wikipedia is at a nadir. To improve it you need to avoid engaging in the harassment of en-wiki users with pointless process. Ironically, the user you are attacking was once blocked for socking in some trouble, and she managed to turn herself around. You ought to do the same. If you do, I'll support you as much as I support her. Jehochman 03:05, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I am site banned from WP. That information is even on my Meta user page. I do not hide it. The sock accounts were not multiple user accounts, but just returning to make some good edits without bothering to say 'may I?' first. But I promised not to do IP editing in the future, and I have not so much as inserted a comma since I made that promises. The IP editing I did had nothing at all with my being site banned. If you think I have done anything wrong on Meta, you have not given a single specific, not a single diff. Just wild accusations about things I have not done. And, moreover, you have made these accusations on WP also, without giving me any way to explain. That seems very unfair. All just because you are angry. Malcolm Schosha 03:23, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see that you have been forum shopping, Jehochman. You have the AN/I thread and Jimbo's talk page, as well as several forums on Meta. A lot of negative things being said on WP about a user who can not reply. And not as single diff to show violations. Malcolm Schosha 03:35, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This page is not for that subject matter, please find and take it to the appropriate place.billinghurst sDrewth 05:20, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Redact edit summery

Jehochman has put an edit on my talk page with the edit summery "Persistent off-wiki and cross-wiki harassment (via meat puppetry)". This is an untrue accusation, and I would appreciate if an administrator would redact that edit summery. Thank you. Malcolm Schosha 03:43, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Umm, you now spread the text wider and broader, you too added to the history, and still the topic line exists. I would suggest that you move the page and its history to an archive, and then restart the talk page by removing the redirect and starting your talk page afresh. There is nothing that we can do while the topic line exists. billinghurst sDrewth 05:06, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Malcolm is banned from en-wiki. He has teamed up with another banned or indef blocked user to pursue a longstanding campaign to harass a good faith user. This must not be tolerated or enabled. Jehochman 05:10, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
When I replied to Jehochman I had not noticed the false accusation he put into the edit summery. I think the term for what I want done is oversiting.
I do not see why I should have to hide my current Meta user page because of Jehochman's vicious accusation. I do not understand why he has not been blocked for his actions on Meta yesterday. Thanks to his carrying his vendetta against me back to en-WP, I have had changes made to my talk WP user pages are untrue, including a tag that calls my current user:Kwork2 account a sock account, which it differently is not. I asked for the right to reply to his attack against me on WP:AN/I, but he has not responded. He has brought incorrect and untrue accusations against me here on Meta, in several different forums, based on distortions of what happened of en-WP three years ago. Yesterday he was edit warring over the RfC, blanking the entire page several times. Why has he not gotten so much as a warning, while dragging my name through the mud? I have done absolutely nothing wrong on Meta, but he brings serious accusations without a single diff.
Please oversight his edit summery on my talk page, and block him for his reprehensible behavior yesterday. Malcolm Schosha 13:23, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What was viscous? You are banned from en-wiki for repeated abuses. You are helping another banned user carry out a vendetta against a En-Wikipedia administrator. The dispute in question was resolved by ArbCom, the final stop in dispute resolution. The page presented as "an RFC" serves no purpose other than to disparage the subject by bringing up old disputes already resolved. Jehochman 14:37, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You have not responded to a single point. I have not said a single critical word against Gwen Gale here, and do not intend to. But you continue to make accusations over events on en-WP that are three years past. You are slandering me here on Meta, and right now. Why will you not, for instance, allow me to respond to the untrue accusations you have made both here and there on AN/I?
By the way my blocks on WP were mostly either 3RR (I admit to being bad at counting, but never intended to violate 3RR a single time,) and some sarcastic insults that were only on my own talk page. But it is past, and I have no further interest in that. I actually requested to have my ban lifted, not because I have an interest in much editing, but would like to be able to make corrections to spelling and punctuation mistakes when I see them. But it is hopeless. And all you are interested in is trying to cause me harm, which is deplorable. Malcolm Schosha 14:50, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you simply walk away from this and any similar dispute, and focus on productive editing, I will be happy to help you get your ban lifted. Jehochman 14:59, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Jehochman, I have done NOTHING wrong here. I have supplied some defense of Mbz1, and have violated nothing by doing that. Malcolm Schosha 15:14, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You have enabled harassment by restoring defamatory content to a page, in violation of WM:NOT.[1] This is at least the third time I've show you that diff. Please stop pretending not to understand. Jehochman 17:58, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
For god's sake, Jehochman, I am asking you to show a diff of one or more of my edits here, something that backs up your accusations. I believe that have done nothing wrong on Meta. I am not interested in your personal interpretation of Meta rules for the RfC. You are accusing ME, and I want you to show I have done something wrong. Is that really so hard to understand? Malcolm Schosha 20:08, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Once again: Could a sysop please oversite Jehochman's incorrect and insulting edit summery on my talk page? Malcolm Schosha 00:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've blocked Malcolm Schosha for a week but I didn't review this request, I don't know whether it's resolved. Nemo 00:08, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It seemed a case of two people escalating each other, and neither wanting to let the matter slide. I will archive the talk page, and it can be discussed when Malcolm can talk again in a week. billinghurst sDrewth 00:55, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For information

Rights holders here may wish to be made aware of discussion on en wp mentioned here. Specifically the item on Wales's page where there appears to be encouragement to "change the management" here. --Herby talk thyme 16:51, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here's one more "Support ban for no other reason then to send a message to Meta that they do not govern en.Wikipedia. (This comment should be taken as a neutral when weighing consensus)  :-) Well, if nothing else, a small and democratic Meta community found itself involved in the real actions :-) --Mbz1 17:10, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. The management here appear to be under the mistaken impression that this wiki is a haven for banned users and soap box for publishing attack page. No it isn't. If you've facilitated these activities, you are unfit to be a sysop. Jehochman 17:23, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Then please start some action to remove my rights - I await it with interest. Bear in mind that I also responded to the idea that the page you are so incandescent about should be a NOINDEX page too. I wonder which one of us is behaving in the more balanced fashion. --Herby talk thyme 18:00, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a search engine expert. NOINDEX doesn't help because there are many sites that mirror the content here, and they strip out the meta robots noindex tag. Moreover, if somebody wants to defame the subject, they can point to this page, and a typical member of the public will not understand the different between English Wikipedia and Meta Wiki. You The meta community are enabling a long term harasser, a banned user who is out to defame on of our volunteers. Jehochman 18:05, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent - I am not - so I responded in a way that I could feeling it would help. No matter - I will know for another time --Herby talk thyme 18:07, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for at least trying to help. You couldn't have known NOINDEX wouldn't solve the problem. It would be really useful if you helped us remove any disputes from the page that are stale or already settled. (eh, that would be all of them) A good definition of "already settled" is that they were resolved by proper dispute resolution on en-wiki. As an en-wiki sysop somewhat familiar with the backstory, I would be happy to point you to the relevant pages. Jehochman 18:11, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh - and I should point out that no one is "management" here as far as I know, we are all volunteers trying to help out - maybe that isn't the way en works? You have management there do you? --Herby talk thyme 18:02, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Management === Meta admin corps. I think you are being pedantic to argue about terminology while dodging the substance of the issue. Why do you, a meta sysop, enable Mbz1, a banned user, to continue their campaign of harassment against Gwen Gale, and en-wiki sysop? Jehochman 18:05, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am not enabling nor disabling - I am trying to act in as even handed a manner as I possibly can - something I always tried to do. I am making no judgements whatsoever despite quite considerable provocation from folk I can only reasonably call rude. --Herby talk thyme 18:09, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
After being goaded and mistreated quite a bit, I am not at my peak of collegiality, but I will try harder to be polite to you. Can we start by deleting all complaints on the page older than--I don't know--one year? Then we'll see what remains and see if these are active disputes or already settled disputes. Jehochman 18:13, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I am from the Armenian Wikipedia, where we right now discuss to change the Armenian spelling of Wikipedia (and maybe other projects as). This is actually a very important and "historical" decision we have to make. Is it possible to add a banner or just a massage to inform users and visitors of all Wiki-projects in Armenian? --vacio 18:49, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you just need a sysop who can edit the MediaWiki:Sitenotice on your wiki. There you can post a information localy. --WizardOfOz talk 19:10, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot. You mean this page, right? --vacio 19:17, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. --WizardOfOz talk 19:20, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again :) --vacio 19:21, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Involved block, WizardOfOz and Beeblebrox

The following discussion is closed.

WizardOfOz has just blocked Bebblebrox indef withut talk page access, for [2] this edit summary. I consider this block to be lousy, as the insult was against WizardOfOz himself, and the length and conditions were unnecessarily punitive. The block could have been justfied, done by another admin, and a length of 24 hours, but I can't find any way an indef is valid here. The only thing that stops me from resetting the block to a day is that this whole issue is an enwp mess spilling over to Meta, and that enwp is my home wiki... Courcelles 21:20, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I told you on IRC, the block is not only for the calling me asshole, but also for trolling, threats, 3RR, ignoring policies and guidelines of this project, things that a good faith user should know and accept. Therefore I can´t see any benefits of lettin´ him any kind of acces here. --WizardOfOz talk 21:25, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I agree with the last comment here, the user basically requested to be blocked; indef just means that the needed length still has to be found (and by the way the user doesn't seem to expect ato make any acceptable contribution to Meta in the future). If WizardOfOz doesn't disagree, I'll revoke the talk block, close this request and let the user explain how he wants to contribute etc. if he wishes. Nemo 21:28, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to do so. --WizardOfOz talk 21:29, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done by Courcelles. Nemo 21:31, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • REopened, as we still need to deal with this atrocious block. No justification has been given for this being indef, or for the admin insulted being the one to mash the button.. Courcelles 21:41, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This was an utterly absurd block. I strongly suggest that you consult other admins before making blocks of this nature in future, otherwise you may find yourself without tools at all.The preceding comment was not meant as a threat. It was a badly-worded caution that failing to grasp why this block was a mistake, and reacting so badly to it, would possibly lead to a desysop discussion to be started on top of this. Others have said it was a stupid block, yet you fail to grasp the point. PeterSymonds (talk) 21:44, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) @ Courcelles You claimed that this is a COI by you as a member of enwiki ArbCom who handled the case. And now you are overruling a action of an uninvolved sysop? What should this be, a enwiki ArbCom decision on meta? --WizardOfOz talk 21:46, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) The block may be excessive, but it doesn't make sense to discuss it without a request from the user. I've blocked him myself, so it's no longer an "involved block" at all and can be discussed on his talk if he wishes. Nemo 21:48, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
edit conflict @PeterSymonds As you are a steward feel free to remove my tools. --WizardOfOz talk 21:49, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Nemo, (re: indef just means needed length still has to be found): Be that as it may, I find it hard to reconcile the removal of talk page access. Killiondude 21:54, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, that was a mistake and WizardOfOz has agreed to correct it. Nemo 21:55, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose I'm more interested in seeing if WizardOfOz understands that was poor form. I read (above) that he agreed to let others correct it, but that doesn't imply he acknowledges what was wrong with it. Note: I'm not a pro-arcom nor a pro-enwiki admin fan. Those are not reasons why I decided to comment. Killiondude 22:09, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This looks like blatant admin abuse to me: an attempt to squelch dissent. I recommend you chaps unblock Beeblebox now before further steps are taken to revoke your ops. Meta is not your personal fiefdom. It exists to serve as a coordinating point of all the projects. We are your constituents. You are here to serve us, not the other way around. You can allow a discussion to proceed about deleting what I allege to be a bogus RFC, or you can dig in your heels until you are dragged from the venue kicking and screaming. The choice is yours. Jehochman 22:13, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

^Beeblebrox has now formally filed for unblock. I fully support granting this requesty. Courcelles 22:10, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done: I've reduced the block length to 22 hours. Mathonius 22:20, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Next order of business. Let's discuss reopenning the RFC deletion discussion. I assert that the RFC considers disputes that were fully resolved already, and as such, the page serves no purpose other than to disparage an identifiable, living person. As such it is an attack page in violation of WM:NOT, line 11. The discussion was trending towards delete when it was prematurely closed by an involved admin. Could we get a neutral admin to reopen the discussion and let it run until there is a clear consensus one way or the other. That would be the healthiest, quickest, happiest way to end this controversy. Jehochman 22:32, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict):::Sure! Just feel free to ask some of your people from ArbCom like Courcelles or the helping hand from PeterSymonds and let them handle against the policies and guidelines of this project. I´m sure they will help you as uninvolved sysops. --WizardOfOz talk 22:38, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Open a request if you wish, as I told you. Nemo 22:34, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much. I will reopen my request for that page to be deleted. How should I do that? Jehochman 22:43, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You can open a new section on this page and ask sysops to reconsider my closure. Nemo 22:44, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion request

The following discussion is closed: There is a clear process for deletion, and that is through Meta:Requests for deletion which is where the deletion discussion is taking place, no admin can take further action on this request at this time. Someone will close the request after the discussion period and action as appropriate to the outcome of the discussion. billinghurst sDrewth 06:29, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I am requesting deletion of Requests for comment/Gwen Gale on ground that it violates WM:NOT points 9, 10 and 11. Meta wiki is not the place to rehash a settled dispute. Although the page in question is formatted like an RFC, it is actually nothing more than an attack page prepared by a banned user for the purpose of harassing an en-wiki administrator. The matters therein were recently appealed to en-wiki's ArbCom, which declined to intervene. On en-wiki the ArbCom is the final level of dispute resolution. Therefore, those matters are fully resolved. There is nothing to be heard here. It would undermine the effectiveness of dispute resolution on en-wiki to allow a user, especially a user who was community banned for repeated disruption, to do an "end run" around established dispute resolution proceedures.

I recognize that procedures here are different from en-wiki. However, one thing common to all of our wikis is that we need to have the ability to control disruptive users and prevent them from gaming the rules to wreak havoc. We should not let a disruptive editor abuse the RFC process. Although your formal rules do not specifically require RFC's to be certified as legitimate disputes, I feel that per common sense or Ignore all rules we can decide to delete an RFC that serves no valid purpose.

What I would like is to resume the deletion discussion. It was, I feel, closed prematurely before a consensus formed. There is no danger in letting that discussion run until a consensus is achieved. If the community decides to delete the RFC, that implicitly means that the community wants to have the ability to delete RFCs. It is unnecessary to prevent a deletion discussion on the grounds that the community does not want to delete RFCs. If that is the case, the community can just vote "keep". Meanwhile, this dispute has spread to many pages and created much needless bad will among volunteers. Let's not spread the poison further. Let's resume the deletion discussion, contain all the comments there, keep them civil, and let a consensus form. Thank you for your consideration. Jehochman 22:53, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If there are specific concerns about some statements I made in RFC, these could be deleted. Deleting the whole thing is unwarranted. This request as well as all other behavior of Jehochman here and on English wiki demonstrates he is afraid of the evidences, he wants to delete them because I've spoken the truth that he and other abusive English wikipedia admins do not like to hear the truth about one of their own. Thanks.--Mbz1 23:01, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
MeatBall:ForestFire. Nemo 23:03, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I left a pointer to this discussion at Talk:Requests for comment/Gwen Gale#Deletion request made.

I'm not sure how en.wiki drama landed here. Is there anything in this RFC that elevates it from en.wiki to here? If this is just some kind of forest fire / forum shopping thing (as Nemo suggests), I'll happily delete the page.

User requests for comment are not uncommon here for users under review by multiple wikis. Poetlister, et al. So the main question in my mind is whether that threshold has been met. If not, the page is outside project scope and can be speedily deleted. --MZMcBride 23:18, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is purely an en-wiki dispute, MZ. It can be handled there very effectively. Jehochman 23:20, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I deleted the subject-space page and talk page. Not sure why it wasn't speedily deleted in January. I agree that this appears to be completely imported drama from the English Wikipedia.
Nemo doesn't like the pages being deleted. I guess RFCs aren't typically deleted, even if they're irrelevant or baseless or whatever. My main concern is restoring content that violates the BLP policy or is defamatory (talk page comments suggested that some of the page content may be defamatory). I'll leave it to Nemo if he wants to undelete and close the RFC/protect the page. Maybe the page content can be banished to the page history rather than sitting around waiting for search engines and spiders? --MZMcBride 23:33, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jehochman bases his request on the assertion that <<Meta wiki is not the place to rehash a settled dispute.>> But he does not establish that the RfC is that. Its just his assumption. Moreover, there is no indication of what harm he thinks will happen if the RfC runs its course. He implies there will be harm, but does nothing to prove that. Those things lacking, the request amounts to no more than WP:I just don't like it. Malcolm Schosha 23:22, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is not the page where to discuss deletion. The deletion request didn't bring any reason for deletion (nor redaction, for what I've seen). MZMcBride's deletion equals a closure in its intent, for what he's written above, so I've switched to it. I've also closed Requests for comment/Meta-wiki requests for comment on users. Now all related requests are closed, as far as I can see, so if there's still some unaddressed issue with the original problem which should be addressed on Meta, the closure (or state of the page) should be discussed on Talk:Requests for comment/Gwen Gale. Nemo 23:53, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is not resolved. We want the RfC deleted, or at a minimum, blanked. We want a regular deletion discussion. We want the RfD reopened, which you closed out of process. This here is the request to re-open that discussion, i.e. a review of your administrative action. You don't get to first close the RfD, and then to also close this review of your action yourself. This is blatant abuse of your admin role. Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:09, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Did you notice that MZMcBride considered the issue resolved in that way just above? I've not closed this request, I've implemented his proposal. Unless I misunderstood it, obviously. Nemo 00:14, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
MZMcBride has no more right to cut the regular deletion process short than you have. By the way, I also reverted your equally out-of-process closure of the other RfC. Claiming that there was no actionable proposal in it and that it was merely a rehashing of the first was simply an obvious falsehood. Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:17, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, this is a "requests for help from a sysop" and a sysop like MZMcBride has the right to close it. Nemo 00:21, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stop fighting and reverting each other. Let's discuss the best way to resolve these matters. I am happy to let the RfD discussion continue to its end, or for a speedy deletion. I see no reason for Meta to host an RFC about matters that occurred entirely on en-wiki. Am I missing something? Jehochman 01:59, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • One more thing. A banned user on en-wiki may not start an RFC. By hosting an en-wiki RFC here and bypassing our usual protections for the accused, this wiki is undermining en-wiki's dispute resolution processes. That's not very friendly. Not at all. Jehochman 02:01, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • If I may comment here, I think the current rules for RFCs on meta do no specifically prohibit a user banned anywhere but globally/on-meta to start a RFC here on whatever. But I do agree that it is a highly questionable practice to substitute meta-wiki for the dispute resolution processes of wikis with tens tens of thousands of active users, and which usually have an elected ArbCom. It's fine to bring RfC/Us on meta when a small wiki admin goes gung-ho and bans everyone but himself (yes, something close to this happened), but it's very questionable that two admins on meta can decide to host a catch-all complaint page against one enwiki sysop for her actions over there, when the en-wiki ArbCom has already decided it's much ado about nothing, and has strongly suggested something similar to an informal w:WP:IBAN between the complainer and admin in question. To further compound the problem was tone of the meta-wiki RFC in question. It was extremely acerbic in parts, e.g. describing the rejection of the case by the enwiki ArbCom as a "shameful, childish, dishonest and cowardly retaliation". The irony in that is beyond words. Furthermore, the meta-wiki sysop and crat who just resigned his tools (after fighting tooth and nail for keeping this RFC here) clearly isn't well acculturated to the dispute resolution methods on enwiki. [3] or with the mandate of Stewards [4], it seems. ASCIIn2Bme 04:18, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, if "the en-wiki ArbCom has already decided it's much ado about nothing", then they probably decided on it without actually looking at the evidences. Do not believe me? Well, here's what one of the arbitrators had to say just a few hours ago here on meta "At the same time, if these allegations about behaviour on en:Wikipedia have not been examined before, I merely ask if they should be examined now. Is this something of concern to the community?". So were the evinces ever examined or "they should be examined now"? Besides, if the evidences were examined, why not to post on wiki what is wrong with let's say 5-7 of them? No, the evidences have never been examined, and this is the problem. It is why I state I have never got a dispute resolution. It is why I brought it here. Actually very few people read the evidences, but here is what one of them said: "Also I am glad of the disclosure of information (and supporting diffs) about this administrator, much of which gives me cause for concern. ", here's another quote "Mbz, at a quick reading much of what you say in your RfC/U makes sense." On the other hand you,ASCIIn2Bme, did not read the evidences, you had no time for this. It was much easier to comment and to vote on community ban proposal, which you happily did without giving any consideration to the evidences.I would have never done something like this.--Mbz1 04:26, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Let's cut to the chase, if [hypothetically] I put up a RFC page about a meta admin with the polemically worded request that s/he "stop being a bully administrator, and, if for some reason s/he cannot do it, stop being administrator at all" what do you think would happen? Your approach is more of a "have you stopped beating your wife?" discourse than a civil attempt at dispute resolution. So, don't be so surprised when people don't want to read your tl;dnr evidence when you prefix it with a "proposal" like that. ASCIIn2Bme 05:33, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      You know what, you are probably right. I am not a native speaker of English. I came from a different culture. It is difficult for me to see the problems in the language I use. When I used to write DYK on wikipedia, I have always asked somebody to copy-edit these, always, and I know my English could be hard to read, but is this enough reason to dismiss my evidences altogether without reading them at all, delete them, ban me? It simply does not look good. Besides, it is not even necessarily to read these evidences. It is enough to examine the differences, and not even all the differences, but just a few of them. In any case I would have never voted to ban somebody without giving this person an opportunity to talk, without asking questions without reading the evidences. About the first point you made, it is a different situation here at Meta.Please see here:"Requests for comment (RFC for short) is a process by which conflicts on Meta, or unresolved conflicts or issues on other Wikimedia projects, can be resolved or discussed." So I violated no policy. I submitted valid evidences. Am I getting banned because of my English? Besides I was blocked indefinitely by arbcom, with my talk page access removed? Why should have a ban proposal to be posted at all? I would have never done anything like this to anybody! --Mbz1 05:44, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • (edit conflict; with update?) You are getting banned on enwiki for not dropping the w:WP:STICK after being told to do so by ArbCom. And you are not the first or the last to whom this measure is applied [5]. Now if you think ArbCom or enwiki are generally unfair for that kind of response, then you're probably entitled to bring a RFC about the en.wiki ArbCom or community on meta. Good luck with that. ASCIIn2Bme 05:57, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        Well, arbcom has no authority on meta. They cannot tell me what to do and what not to do on meta, just the same as they cannot tell me what I should or not should do in a real life. My ban is going be the first ever ban made on English wikipedia for an absolutely valid conduct at Meta. --Mbz1 06:03, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Canvassing and edit warring

There is a serious problem here. A user put up an RfC on Meta about another Wiki, which is a very standard issue. Someone at en.wikipedia did not like it and heavily canvassed. Users there have been constantly disrupting Meta. I point out which users have no history, which is common practice to label such edits and there are even templates for such in just about every Wiki. Future, a person heavily involved in the en.wiki dispute, reverts and claims something that is just not true. It is utterly necessary for any admin to be able to quickly differentiate between possibly canvassed votes and those who are Meta regulars. This is the canvassing thread. I am surprised that these individuals have not been blocked for cross-wiki disruption via canvassing and other inappropriate actions. I am also surprised by en.wiki trying to take over Meta, which has always been a central location for such discussions free of the control of other projects. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:51, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The charge of "canvassing" is utterly ludicrous, as is the premise that having "new" editors with little prior editing on Meta participate in these processes is somehow a problematic thing. In this respect, Meta is crucially different from other, local projects that have their own local communities focussed on local content production. Meta is supposed to be a place where people from other projects can come on an ad hoc basis. When there's an issue ongoing here on Meta that crucially (and in fact exclusively) concerns editors on en-wiki, then of course editors from en-wiki are going to be notified, and of course they are going to flock in here. That's how it is supposed to be. Seriously, who else would you want to comment on those processes if not editors from the wiki it concerns? The insinuation that "Meta regulars" ought to somehow have a privileged voice here is utterly offensive and absurd. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:58, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If there was a vote on en.wiki and Meta started a thread here with links to it and demanding that the user starting it be blocked in addition to it deleted, then those people coming from the Meta thread would be blocked when they tried to vote on en.wiki. Why the double standard? Are you saying that en.wiki users have the right to impose their will on every other project? Ottava Rima (talk) 15:01, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Read again what I wrote above. Then, if you still don't understand it, read it again. If you don't want to understand it, don't bother reading it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:03, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What you said above is that en.wiki gets to run every other Wiki. That is the equivalent of saying that someone from the United States or United Kingdom have the right to go to other countries and demand full voting rights even though they were there for only a day. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:07, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not done (double edit conflict) I'm certainly not surprised. Thank you for your help in adding some notes, but I'm sure that the closing sysop, whoever it will be, will be smart enough to identify valid !votes, ignore invalid arguments and purify the result from canvassing, so I don't see any purpose in this RFH now. I also have to note that at least the first of your notes wasn't really neutral. Nemo 15:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How was it not neutral? "This user has very few edits and this is his only recent edit" - how could this be made more neutral? Ottava Rima (talk) 15:07, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
By not saying it. How is it relevant? If you think users with few edits here don't belong, then the meta should not host RfC's where they are requested to comment. But apparently the meta does, and I see no policy which prevents them from commenting. Alanscottwalker 20:55, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Every Wiki points out when new users come and start editing sensitive discussion pages (deletions, blocks, etc) to measure if it is possible that there is canvassing or other forms of consensus disruption. Many, including en.wiki, have templates. Why you would claim that labeling them to point them out is "preventing them from commenting" is a tad confusion. However, it appears that you lack any history of editing here, which makes your post strange. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:16, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What? I am a registered user here, whether you approve or not. You you don't get to decide who's opinion counts in consensus discussions. Especially when you are involved. One would expect more maturity and circumspection from an admin. Alanscottwalker 21:28, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What are you talking about? I'm not an admin. Your lack of understanding that is exactly why new people's statements when they have no background on a project are mostly discounted and seen as disruptive. You make statements based on false beliefs and are probably here for the wrong reasons. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:37, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm talking about why your request to re-put in your tendentious comments was denied by an admin, with more maturity and good sense. Not that you are an admin, which is a good thing. As for your assumption of bad faith, you clearly don't understand the consensus process.Alanscottwalker 21:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The user in question was blocked when the situation was analyzed. Furthermore, your statements are empty as no project gives the same weight to brand new people with no experience coming to a canvassed page the same weight as uninvolved regulars. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:20, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of course any self-respecting project gives more weieght to the well reasoned comments of others over the badly reasoned comments of regulars who demostrate such poor knowledge and maturity, that they argue 'don't listen, they're new.' Alanscottwalker 00:10, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The most eloquent rhetoric without any experience is still bs. Knowledge is something you earn, not that you magically start with. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:31, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Knowledge is something you learn, its not something you close your ears to because you can't abide others encroaching on your poor reasoning. Alanscottwalker 13:53, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Learning requires time. Those who suddenly appear have no chance to learn. By your own statement new people should be flat out ignored and directed to other parts of the project and told to help out before they try to participate in sensitive consensus processes. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:04, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I wrote elsewhere, I do not think that there is an issue when people from a local project are informed about discussions that relate to that local project; Meta is meant to serve all the projects and all wikimedians equally. I do agree that people coming from other projects need to learn (and that may require some quick teaching in a respectful manner on our part) that their local project rules are not necessarily the same as Meta's rules and on Meta, we follow Meta guidelines. I am loathe to exclude people from discussions about projects in which they are interested, but they need to conform to Meta policy and guidelines when participating in Meta discussions. -- Avi 17:55, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, maybe we should have a page showing some of the major differences between our largest projects and Meta. EnWiki obviously comes to mind as the largest source of potential problem. -- Avi 17:57, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Avi. As a metawiki user, en wiki user (primarily) and commons wiki user, I wish all admins were as service oriented as you. Some Admins, here, seem to view users of primarily other projects as unwelcome. If true, that is a very detrimental thing to this project, as a whole. Alanscottwalker 20:33, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to be a dangerous idea here among some admins that Meta can handle dispute resolution for en-wiki. In general Meta cannot, unless a dispute spans multiple wikia. Policy ought to be clarified to eliminate any doubt. Users may not take a matter to en-ArbCom, fail to get the answer they want, and then go to Meta for an appeal. ArbCom is the final stop in dispute resolution. Moreover, the ArbCom members and admin at en-wiki are elected by a larger number of community members, and with greater scrutiny, than the admins here. As such, decisions taken at en-wiki over en-wiki matters better represent what the community wants. En-wiki participants have reacted and will react very badly if perceived "outsiders" from Meta attempt to impose their will on en-wiki. Jehochman 20:50, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody from Meta have ever tried to impose "their will on en-wiki". It is just the opposite: en wiki is trying to impose its will on meta. --Mbz1 20:56, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
En:wiki users should also be mindful of meta:wiki policies and respectful of meta:wiki users. The spectical of an en:wiki adminstrator coming to this project and getting into a fight with an admin here, is a grossly poor reflection on both projects' admin corps, and on both projects. Alanscottwalker 21:04, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Meta RfCs are non-binding, have no ramifications, and are merely a reflection of discussion. All projects are given the ability to have people voice concerns on Meta, and many, many have done so. It provides a neutral territory that is more comfortable to people who believe they are unfairly being teamed up on, which the WP:AN thread would give clear reason why such is necessary. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:18, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But you have to be mindful of whether they undermine process on other wiki's, or defame them or their users, going along in that way lies terrific conflict. Alanscottwalker 21:23, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is no possible way of another project being undermined by an honest discussion. If they are "undermined" then chances are the process there is flawed and should be scrapped. People from many Wikis have come here to point out via RfCs abuse and the abuse was dealt with regardless of the protests of the other projects. Corruption should be exposed and everyone should desire that there are no flawed projects or systematic abuses. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:39, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, you undermine other projects if you defame them that's the purpose of defamation. Alanscottwalker 21:47, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Making claims of defamation without proof is, by definition, defamatory. If someone disagreed with the user then they could state that. Canvassing, attacks, trying to get things deleted without cause, etc., are acts akin to bullying. That is disruptive. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:22, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We agree that disruption should not go on. Of course, the solution of getting it off this board and have its users not be bothered with it is much better, because it is idiotically useless and can only bring the Project into disrepute. Alanscottwalker 23:57, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The boards were designed for it, so a solution for making it not designed shows more of a problem with those wanting it gone than with the board. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:31, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No there not. The purposes are listed here: WM:DP#All users. Alanscottwalker 13:48, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal

I'd like to propose to close this request. Allowing it to continue will only create more, unneeded drama.

IMO there are two ways of closing it:

  1. Tell the users (mostly admins from English Wikipedia) to stop trying to impose their policies on Meta, and keep RFC.
  2. Give in to the overwhelming majority and delete RFC.

Either option is fine with me, but at that point I am very sure that the deletion request should be closed one way or another, and as soon as possible. Thanks.--Mbz1 15:55, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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