Talk:Movement Charter

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This note was updated on 01/2022

Do we have to be the first Hub?[edit]

Later, if we add something in other MC sections that will require an update, it means doing at least a new mini revision.
✍️ Dušan Kreheľ (talk) 19:56, 30 November 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

from Japan[edit]

I'm sorry to use Japanese.

私は日本語が母語で、日本語版Wikipediaで、主に歴史の記事を書いています。Universal Code of Conduct/Initial 2020 Consultations/Japanese での調査結果を読みました。 ジェンダー意識が高い人が、処女航海や乙女といった言葉に抵抗がある、という指摘がありました。 (私は女性です) まず、日本語はインド・ヨーロッパ語とはまったく違うということを指摘させてください。あなたは、日本人は男女差別が激しいというイメージを持っているかもしれません。

私が言いたいのは、日本語には、言語においては、あまり差別はないということです。”人=man”という言葉は、男女を問いません。単に人間という意味です。 処女、乙女「Otome」という単語については、1000年以上前の和歌集にすでに現れる言葉です。 その言葉が、「性体験の有無」なのか「結婚しているか、違うのか」どちらの意味で使われていたのかはっきりわかっていません。当時の日本では、いわゆる「処女性」が良いものという観念はなかったようです。私は処女(おとめ)という言葉が読み込まれた、美しい詩をたくさん知っています。

英語のように『man =male 』ではないし、「he/she 」の区別も、近代の前にはありませんでした。 ですから、たとえば「処女」という単語だけで、ジェンダーの問題だと考えないでください。言語の問題です。日本語は、北東アジアによくある、孤立した、古い言語の一つのようです。日本語では、ひとつの文は



もしあなたが文を書く時、関係代名詞を少なくしてくださると、翻訳者の方は助かるでしょう。 私はポリティカルコレクトネスは言論弾圧ではないかと捉えています。どうか、あなたがたの「現代の基準」だけで、言葉の言い換えを指示したりしないでください。

私はアメリカから来たGAFA の恩恵を受けていますが、同時に、彼らの、現地の微妙なルールや美意識を無視したやり方には怒りを覚えています。また、これは日本人も悪いのですが、英語を無闇に取り入れて英語とも日本語ともつかない文章が溢れている状況になっています。 彼らのいうポリティカル・コレクトネスは、言論弾圧になり得るのではないかと恐れています。Wikipediaは、どうか、わたしたち日本語ユーザーや、インド・ヨーロッパ語ではない言葉を使う人々の、文化の背景まで考慮してください。 Thanks--Kizhiya (talk) 16:47, 29 December 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Please forgive me for expressing my opinion in Japanese. I'm a native speaker of Japanese, and I write articles for the Japanese version of Wikipedia, mostly on history. I read 。Universal Code of Conduct/Initial 2020 Consultations/Japanese

People with high gender awareness pointed out; feel like to resist words like "maiden voyage" and "maiden".

(I'm a woman.)

Japanese is very different from Indo-European languages. You might think The Japanese are very sexist.

What I want to say is our language has almost no gender difference. For example, man & woman are the same word. 【For example, men and women are part of the big concept of person"ヒト、Hito." Men are “オトコ,Otoko’”women are “オンナ,On-na”. the words themselves are the same length. There is no hierarchy.--Kizhiya (talk) 10:07, 5 January 2022 (UTC)】 The usage of 乙女「Otome」 "maiden" ”virginity” , the word already appears in waka poetry anthologies more than 1,000 years old. It is not clear which meaning was used at that time; “married or not” or “sexual experience” . It seems there was no thought the importance of "maiden" ”virginity”. I know many beautiful poems which have these words.Reply[reply]

It’s not 『man =male 』 like in English. The difference between 「he/she 」didn’t exist before European influence. So, please don’t consider the doc above, which raises this gender issue based on the word-usage. The Japanese language is one of the north-east Asian languages, which has isolated old languages. A sentence; Subject - Adjective - Noun - Adjective - Noun - Verb

If your writings will have less relative pronoun, translators would be appreciated. I think political correctness is suppression of speech. Please, don’t instruct to rephrase words with “the modern standard”.

I'm a beneficiary of GAFA coming from the US. At the same time, I feel anger with their attitude; ignoring the local subtle rules and aesthetics. Japanese people are also responsible that our language is confused by importing English without consideration. It’s not Japanese, nore English. Wikipedia, please, consider the background of the Japanese users and other languages which are not Indo-European languages.

translation by --YShibata (WMF) (talk) 12:06, 4 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Kizhiya, thank you for sharing your insights and experiences. From my personal capacity I can say I really aim for the MCDC to draw a cultural sensitive charter. We are aware the English language can raise difficulties in translations, and in my opinion a Wikimedia Movement Charter should be able to take into account cultural differences worldwide. There is a difficult task ahead of us, and we want to reach out to different communities in the best way possible to present the charter for review. If you would like to help us with this next year, I would be happy to contact you. In any case, I want to thank you for your link to the analysis of how the process around the UCoC went from the point of view of the Japanese community, this is already very valuable. Ciell (talk) 09:28, 30 December 2021 (UTC) (Viewpoints are my own, and may not reflect the opinion of the full MCDC) Ciell (talk) 09:28, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
こんにちは、Ciell (talk · contribs)私の長い文を読んでくれて、返事をくれて、ありがとう。メタ-Wikiの活動をするのは、私には余裕がなくて難しいです。
処女や乙女という言葉について少し補足します。あなたは日本の「kawaii 」に詳しいようですね! 私たちの文化は、「乙女ゲーム(Otome -game)」と呼ばれる、女性のための恋愛(性的なものも含む)ゲームを持っています。乙女(Otome )を形容詞にして、女性のロマンティックな気持ちを表すのにも使います。
とにかくありがとう。--Kizhiya (talk) 13:54, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hello Ciell, I appreciate that you read my long contents. Thanks for your reply. The activity on Meta is difficult for me because I have no time for it.
I’d like to add to a few things to the words "maiden" ”virginity”. You seem you know a Japanese word 「kawaii 」well! Our culture has a game for female, called 「乙女ゲーム(Otome -game)」, which means love, (including sexual one). Sometimes the adjectivization of noun 乙女Otome will be used to express the romantic feeling in a woman’s heart.
The majority of Japanese members don’t know about the foundation well. So, some of us has begun a project to learn words from the foundation.
translation by --YShibata (WMF) (talk) 12:19, 4 January 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This is great Kizhiya, thank you for your efforts! Ciell (talk) 06:35, 31 December 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]